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Post by dunpeal2064 on Nov 16, 2019 20:13:34 GMT -5
That other subset I like is arcade ports that were significantly better or different than the original. Contra, Super C, Bionic Commando, Strider... all super-interesting games, and in the first three's cases, I'd definitely argue they blow away the arcade version. Hell yeah, I dig those too. Stuff like Strider or Ninja Gaiden are cool, since they are so different that they are almost not even ports, but I also really like the games that just feel like strict upgrades. Gradius III on SNES is, to me, just flat-out better than the arcade game, even though its just trying to be a port. That is something that seems pretty unique to the 8 and 16 bit era, too, since afterwards near-perfect arcade ports became common. Granted, those are generally better for their extras and such, but something feels special about those classic ports that managed to go toe-to-toe with beefy arcade hardware.
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Post by Sarge on Nov 16, 2019 20:34:12 GMT -5
Can't believe I forgot Ninja Gaiden. Yeah, that's a great example, too, although I actually quite like the arcade game as well.
One of the best things about the NES was that when devs realized that perhaps straight ports were a bad idea, and expanded on games or outright changed them to fit the console. We got some awesome stuff that way.
Oh, dang, just remembered Willow as well. The arcade game certainly wasn't bad at all, but I love the ARPG version on NES.
Also, Jackal! Much like Contra, the NES version is better just for how much more responsive aiming can be.
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Post by Xeogred on Nov 16, 2019 21:25:39 GMT -5
I bet that Super Ghouls hack would just be even harder to me, lol. Since I know the levels and jumping all too well based off years of memory. I do want to check out some of those hacks though, for like Gradius III. But I did play Thunder Force IV -Gold-, which was the Saturn version and eliminated the Genesis lag... it was so brutal and weird.
I wouldn't defend chunky framerates of the old, yet I honestly can't think of a single case as a kid where slowdown prevented me from enjoying a game.
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Post by Ex on Nov 17, 2019 1:23:53 GMT -5
Evergrace | 2000 | PS2
Evergrace is a PlayStation 2 action-RPG, developed and published by FromSoftware in Japan in 2000. Agetec later localized and published Evergrace in the USA in 2000. Crave published this game in PAL territories in 2001. This release was one of the very first RPGs available for PS2. To its detriment, as it's pretty obvious FromSoftware were in a rush to get it to market. Understandably as launch titles tend to sell well, by virtue of joining the limited options for early adopters. Legend says Evergrace started life as a PS2 concept, but also had a PS1 version being developed simultaneously. However FromSoftware eventually realized the PS1 could not handle the gameplay concepts parallel to the PS2 version, and thus the PS1 version was abandoned. It does seem like a lot of the graphical assets and polygon matrices in Evergrace are reminiscent of PS1 standards. Evergrace is a considerably quirky action-RPG with esoteric elements. For starters it uses an autumn motif for its environments. (Despite the moronic USA cover displaying a disingenuous summer landscape.) The gameplay tends to focus as much on equipment configurations as it does fighting baddies. Clothing configurations all have an effect on a protagonist's offensive powers. Beyond that, the wearing of clothing configurations, and the (changeable) color of each article of clothing, is used to solve puzzles. Another unusual aspect is Evergrace's OST... which is idiosyncratic to put it mildly. Evergrace stars two protagonists, and the player will have to play through both of their campaigns to finish the game. Although this was done in the name of artificial longevity, thankfully each protagonist's campaign has enough unique areas and bosses to not feel overly redundant. There are no towns or villages, instead a shop is available through save points. Just about every NPC in this game is weird. The shop is run by a mystic elephant that will give you fashion advice. He also sells new equipment and items, upgrades gear, and repairs everything. Attacks utilize the PS2's analog buttons, meaning the harder you hit the button, the harder your character attacks (this can thankfully be disabled in the options). Lastly, I'll just say the plot is absolutely byzantine.
+A somber game-world exuding an alien ambiance.
+Some of the level designs are rather good. +Eccentric enemies and memorable boss battles.
+Lots of different weapons with independent attack styles.
+Morpheus' English voice acting is very amusing.
-No enemy lock-on system makes the camera problematic during combat. -Equipment deteriorates quickly and requires constant upkeep.
-Some of the level designs are horrendously bad. -Awful slow-down when more then two enemies are present.
-The plot is practically indecipherable without external source material. At the time of this writing, Evergrace is nearly twenty years old. And honestly, it feels like it. You can certainly tell this game was a rushed launch title. I would not say Evergrace has aged particularly well whatsoever. Honestly I doubt this game seemed cutting edge or particularly ambitious even during its time. The gameplay is fairly basic, you explore levels, kill enemies, kill bosses, gather new equipment, all via third person camera. Though your characters do not level up, rather their power is linked to their equipment. (The player levels up equipment instead, using rare ore.) Thus on the surface, Evergrace is a clunky action-RPG that is certainly rough around the edges. And yet, there's something alluring about Evergrace. It's not immediately apparent, but the longer you play the more apparent it becomes. I'm speaking of that indefinable strange charm FromSoftware's older games exude. Despite the crusty outer mechanics, one starts to develop an affinity for Evergrace's abnormal demeanor. Though honestly if you were to play through the entirety of Evergrace, you'd need to be a very patient player. This can be quite a challenging experience. As is tradition for FromSoftware, there's zero hand-holding or guide posting to aid the player. I personally only finished Evergrace purely out of scholarly interest. I'm a fan of FromSoftware, and I enjoy beating their weird old games. Evergrace may not be particularly graceful, but it is ever unique.
Ex's time to beat: 11 hours 30 minutes Ex's rating: 6.5/10
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I plan to check out this game's sequel next.
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Post by anayo on Nov 17, 2019 7:32:54 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Evergrave was developed in parallel for PS1 and PS2 and wonder if any PS1 peeks of the assets have or will turn up online. What was it about this game that made you think it wouldn't work on PS1? At any rate it looks like it would have been a very desirable game in 2000. The graphics are really nice for that time period.
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Post by Ex on Nov 17, 2019 13:06:47 GMT -5
wonder if any PS1 peeks of the assets have or will turn up online You can see some beta screenshots of the game here: evergrace.fandom.com/wiki/Pre-Release_EvergraceThis one looks rather PS1-ish: Well it wasn't my opinion that would be the case, just what I read on the internet. For example from IGN's review:
"It wasn't until after the game's development process started that the company decided to try and develop the game for the PlayStation because of its stranglehold on the console market in Japan. Then, after finding out that the title was way too ambitious for the PlayStation, From Software decided to develop the title for PlayStation 2 instead. " source
As far as technical stuff goes, one aspect would be the way protagonists wear equipment in the game. The equipment is shown graphically in 3D on the characters, and visually changes to reflect different equipment load-outs. I'm talking about different helmets, chest armor, boots, and weapons. The equipment meshes and textures change on a player's whim, along colors assigned by the player. This aspect may have been tricky for a PS1 game to accomplish. In addition, there are some huge 3D bosses and complex polygonal environment geography at times, which the PS1 would have struggled to render.
Interesting that you think as such. Well, personally I'll say the graphics were technically beyond what a PS1 could do, but for being a PS2 game I didn't find myself impressed at all. Let's remember that Shenmue came out in 2000 on a technically weaker system, and it visually blows Evergrace out of the water. Granted Shenmue had an insane budget and years of development! Still, if you go back and read reviews for Evergrace written during its release window, you'll find many reviewers complained that the graphics were bland or disappointing. I'll just say they got the job done, and that's about it. Though the intro CG I linked earlier is pretty good for what it is.
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Post by toei on Nov 17, 2019 20:06:32 GMT -5
dunpeal2064 Sarge IIRC, Ninja Gaiden arcade and NES were developed simultaneously by two different teams, so the NES game isn't a port. The NES game even came out earlier in Japan (December 1988 VS an unspecified date in 1989 for the arcade game). Another thing that's pretty cool - games that started out as ports and ended up essentially being sequels, like Shadow Dancer and E-Swat on the the Genesis. Sega's home software department didn't like remaking a game that already existed, so they'd just end up making their own game with the same theme and general gameplay. There's an interview that suggests that Revenge of Shinobi was planned as a Shinobi port at first, but they just ended up making something completely different. Ex It took years for the PS2 to really beat Shenmue's graphics, though. Hell, I'd say Shenmue is better looking than the PS2 Yakuza games, which came out in 2005 and 2006 respectively. Personally, I find the various screenshots you've posted of Evergrace very attractive, and I've been interested in trying it out since you've started talking about it here. It might just be the first game I play in 2020, who knows.
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Post by Sarge on Nov 17, 2019 20:23:25 GMT -5
toei: I'd always wondered about that, whether it was a Strider situation or something else. I knew that it was a simultaneous game for that one. I agree that it took some time for the PS2 to really overtake the Dreamcast. Shenmue looked excellent, and had a budget to match. I think it really came down to the architecture: the PS2 was harder to code for but more powerful, the Dreamcast easier to get the most out of, but not quite as capable. Those early PS2 games tended to be quite rough; indeed, I remember comparisons of Dead or Alive 2 on DC vs. PS2, where the former looked much better. An interesting read on how the PS2 handled things back in the day: www.ign.com/articles/2000/07/01/ps2-aliased-no-more
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Post by Ex on Nov 17, 2019 21:44:21 GMT -5
Evergrace very attractive, and I've been interested in trying it out since you've started talking about it here. I'd love to see an informed second opinion of the game here. It's an underdog, no doubt.
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Post by Xeogred on Nov 17, 2019 23:01:31 GMT -5
Finally got to read the review, nice read Ex. The Mystic Elephant is a standout... would you say some of the tone is Shadow Hearts-esque? I like an intriguing ~6, the flaws are apparent and easy to see, but definitely sounds like this one still has some heart and charm underneath. Not saying I'm jumping to play that one anytime soon, but it's cool to finally hear about one of the most infamous PS2 boxes I saw everywhere in stores 20 some years ago.
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