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Post by Ex on Aug 29, 2018 21:53:20 GMT -5
So here's a silly thread. But it might create some good discussion. So bear with me. What's your vote for the JRPG series that has the best plots overall? I tried to list the most popular, and you can even vote twice in case you can't quite decide. (If you have a choice that's not listed, there's a vote for that.) Nonredeemable bonus points granted if you want to explain your decision.
Surely not ever JRPG is about a teenage amnesiac saving the world from a big bad evil with his gang of high school friends!
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Post by toei on Aug 29, 2018 23:14:38 GMT -5
Tough one. I love Dragon Quest, but it's more about subplots and exploration than the main plot. FF is all over the place, not only as a series but within the individual games. The core Megami Tensei games have some really interesting stuff go on, but the two I've played (1 & 2) don't really develop the story enough. The Tales games are the most consistently generic RPGs out there in everything except battle system. Most of the pre-Trails Legend of Heroes aren't translated (or so horribly that they're almost completely ruined, like the PSP trilogy), and the Trails games are overly verbose and mostly banal. Every Ys game pre-7 is great in terms of concise storytelling, but the content is still standard fantasy stuff. All this to say that I'd probably go for either Mother or Phantasy Star. Not just for the plot, but for the overall writing, including dialogues.
There are a number of RPGs that aren't listed that impressed me with their story, including Glory of Heracles 3 (which does feature amnesia early on, but there's more to it) and Alundra. Lufia 2 was solid, too, though the characters were again more impressive than the core plot. Breath of Fire 2 has a great story.
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Post by Sarge on Aug 30, 2018 0:20:24 GMT -5
Tough question. I'll have to think about it.
Actually, I'd say the plots of the Valkyrie Profile games, particularly the first one, are quite excellent.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 30, 2018 6:33:16 GMT -5
You list the Tales series and not Xeno... YIKES!
Xenogears/Xenosaga for me followed by Suikoden. Matsuno related games (FFT somewhat, Vagrant Story, Tactics Ogre LuCT), are up there from the few I've played but definitely not FFXII and sometimes all the characters in these more complex plots blend in and don't stand out a lot in their own iconic way, unlike the Xeno/Suiko games. For Suikoden 1-2 tell a nice huge story that ties in a lot of stuff together so I've always liked to see it as one huge package, then Suikoden 3 has some of the best characters I've ever seen in a game and focuses more on them rather than a big plot. The Xeno games are like better than most anime to me and some of the craziest most fleshed out worlds I've ever seen, especially Xenosaga. They aren't for everyone but they are absolutely for me.
I like most FF's a lot. Chrono Trigger comes to mind.
Breath of Fire IV is high on the list.
Probably some more I'm forgetting.
I enjoyed Shadow Hearts a lot earlier this year and gave it a 8/10 or so, but I wouldn't say it totally blew me away. There are horror games I can think of that are better.
I do not have a lot of experience in these, yet: - Dragon Quest, need to play more and I'm finally a fan after DQ5. But I don't personally see these surpassing my affiliation with FF. - Mother, I don't think these are for me. I'll give Earthbound another chance someday maybe.
- Phantasy Star, everyone loves 4 but I honestly can't say it left a huge impression on me when I played 10 hours or so years back. Need to play more. - Shin Megami Tensei, need to try some of these. Might like them, might not. - The Legend of Heroes, I own one of them on Steam. Been interested in these and the Cold Steel series, someday. - Valkyrie Profile, always sounds like the last "big one" from the PSX era I never got around to... and the price point has held me back. I'll emulate it someday, though hearing it is guide heavy for hidden content doens't sound fun.
Ultimately I'm not that hard to please, Secret of Mana is probably one of the simplest ones that works for me because of how immediate the beginning is, the action, and it doesn't take long to get other characters and make progress. The amnesia thing is hilarious but I don't mind it in some titles, or taking up some sword to save the world. But I need other characters or something to keep it going, something the Y's series fails at from the few I've played. And someone (me) had to laugh and bitch at the poll selection, I know it's a silly thread, but I am 0/5 on finishing Tales games exactly because the plots are THAT boring and coma inducing. You'd have to try real hard to be more generic than this franchise. I grabbed Berseria on a sale recently and it will be my final attempt with them.
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Post by Sarge on Aug 30, 2018 10:33:36 GMT -5
You don't play the Tales games for plot, although a few have been decent enough. I actually quite enjoyed the plot of Tales of the Abyss, and while it was ragged on a bit on release, I thought the plot of Tales of Symphonia was fine as well.
Which Tales games did you play, perchance?
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Post by nullPointer on Aug 30, 2018 11:59:24 GMT -5
My views on this fall in remarkably close with Xeogred 's comments on this (save for the games I've not played before). My views such as they are: - Final Fantasy: This would seem like a potential shoe in, but we're dealing with a remarkably long running series containing some gloriously well executed narratives (IV, VI, VII) ... as well as some decidedly ho-hum/middling narratives (I, V, IX). Furthering this dilemma is that from a narrative perspective, Final Fantasy has this incredible propensity towards 'navel-gazing' (if we're speaking in polite company) or 'getting way too far up its own ass' (if we're being crass). On the other hand long development cycles, large development teams, and 40+ hour play times can all have an adverse impact to effective storytelling in all but the most deft of hands. Having said all of that, I just (finally) played Final Fantasy Tactics this year, and was impressed with the effective story telling. If you ever wondered what Game of Thrones would look like when set against a Final Fantasy backdrop, that's the one.
- Dragon Quest: I do love some Dragon Quest, but from a narrative perspective they've always struck me as being very vanilla (albeit well executed) sword and sorcery tropes. To that end, I've only beaten the first two, and not played anything beyond the 8-bit entries, but I've also not seen anything from latter entries that makes me question this notion.
- Suikoden: I've only played a bit of the first title, but it's definitely one I've been meaning to return to. I don't have a great recollection of the story, but I remember enjoying what I played.
- Breath of Fire: I really enjoyed the story in the first game quite a lot. But while the second game improved the game play of the first significantly, the story was more or less a re-tread. It's a series I enjoy though.
I have to agree with Xeogred regarding Secret of Mana though. I've not played any other title in the Mana series, but I enjoyed SoM immensely. Among other things, the characters in SoM have identifiable and traceable character arcs (as opposed to scores of other JRPGs in which the characters at the end of the game are just higher level versions of the exact same characters they were at the beginning). A well executed story of this type should have some level of inertia, but if that inertia has zero effect on the characters within ... well the story falls flat IMO. At any rate Secret of Mana has always ranked highly in my list of favorite JRPGs, and I was bit surprised to learn that it's something of a divisive game (although to be fair I think that any disagreement here generally stems more from pacing and gameplay than any story based elements)
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Aug 30, 2018 14:12:45 GMT -5
The Mother games have such absurd overarching plots that they manage to get away with plotholes, deus ex machina devices, "random" nonsense, and so on. Ya know, the stuff that bothers me in other games. Also, despite the inherent silliness, the Mother games are incredibly poignant, emotional, and striking. Mother wins!
As for the others... I actually love the plot of the first Final Fantasy. The barebones generic approach makes the player feel like a Dungeon Master. It's great. VI is utterly fantastic throughout, though I always hated how the concept of "magic" was handled, with the equipable magicite, the factory, and so on. Felt like a shoehorned attempt to turn every character into a mage (which ends up breaking the game, difficulty-wise). Every Final Fantasy after VI has a horrific story, VII possessing the most offensive of all.
Ys has the best "mythology" overall. Love the setting, architecture, goddesses, recurring NPCs...
Dragon Quest is good clean simple fun.
Phantasy Star has a great setting, okay stories.
Never found Shin Megami Tensei as deep, edgy, or interesting as other folks.
Tales of and Legend of Heroes have mostly garbage plots. Sometimes offensively so.
Suikoden and Shadow Hearts are too modern for me. Not familiar with the games at all.
As for ones not mentioned....... Secret of Mana. Love it. It does the "kid finds a sword and becomes the chosen hero" better than any other game.
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Post by Sarge on Aug 30, 2018 14:34:40 GMT -5
Actually, the Suikoden plots are pretty strong. For the first three games, anyway. I didn't find the fourth or fifth quite as compelling, but strangely I enjoyed my time with Suikoden IV more than V, which is the exact opposite of most folks' experience. (The fourth game is routinely considered the worst of the series.) bonesnapdeez : You really should at least give Suikoden I/II a shot. They're not very modern at all. I'd say they're very 16-bit in nature, actually. Completely agreed on Shin Megami Tensei. Once you get past the edginess that is recruiting demons to your army and killing gods, they all tend to be spins on the same tale. I'm also not a huge fan of Xenosaga's plot, despite enjoying the games themselves well enough. (Sorry, Xeogred!) |
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Post by nullPointer on Aug 30, 2018 14:50:16 GMT -5
As for the others... I actually love the plot of the first Final Fantasy. The barebones generic approach makes the player feel like a Dungeon Master. It's great. VI is utterly fantastic throughout, though I always hated how the concept of "magic" was handled, with the equipable magicite, the factory, and so on. Felt like a shoehorned attempt to turn every character into a mage (which ends up breaking the game, difficulty-wise). Every Final Fantasy after VI has a horrific story, VII possessing the most offensive of all. I had some significant inner-debate regarding whether to classify VII as one of the 'better' Final Fantasy stories. It's unfocused, it's incredibly overwrought, it's unabashedly emo (due in no small part to being a product of its generation), and it's unevenly paced. And yet ... and yet ... <pauses to don nostalgia goggles ...  > I think my defense of the story in this game stems from it's small moments. In the midst of all these flaws, the game is jam packed with these achingly poignant, heartfelt moments of sincerity. The flashback scene in which Tifa and Cloud are conversing and star gazing from the water tower, may be one of the few times a game has made me feel genuine nostalgia for a fictional past within the game itself. VII is packed with these small, quiet ... intimately human moments that go along way towards making up for its larger narrative issues (IMO, etc, etc.). I've never played the Mother games (I need to get on that!), but I suspect I might develop similar feelings for those as well. I should also say that I may have been hasty in lumping in FFI among the 'lesser' Final Fantasy stories. It really was a decent narrative for its time of release. Oof ... do I really need to spoiler plot points for FFI in a dedicated JRPG thread? I'll do so just to be on the safe side. The time travel revelation is a pretty neat story twist, particularly when it comes to light that the narrative itself is entirely circular. The fact that the first boss you fight is also the last really just puts icing and sprinkles on that particular plot device |
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Post by toei on Aug 30, 2018 17:03:59 GMT -5
For me the starting point in Breath of Fire 2, that you / Ryu go out to play as a child and come back to find none of the villagers know who you are anymore, is exactly that; a poignant small moment. I don't see how the story is a re-tread at all. It's the only RPG to really do an in-depth, "evil religion" story well. I know that's not popular among certain people, but bear in mind that the religion depicted isn't actually Christianity, and the Evil God depicted isn't anymore the Christian God than it is the Devil or the anti-christ. There was a lot of media attention given to cult like Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, culminating with their terrorist attack on the Tokyo Subway in 1995. I think cults like that also had a lot to do with the depiction of evil cults and religious sects in Japanese RPGs & entertainment.
Also Xenogears had a great story, even if the last Disc is all narration.
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> I think my defense of the story in this game stems from it's small moments. In the midst of all these flaws, the game is jam packed with these achingly poignant, heartfelt moments of sincerity. The flashback scene in which Tifa and Cloud are conversing and star gazing from the water tower, may be one of the few times a game has made me feel genuine nostalgia for a fictional past within the game itself. VII is packed with these small, quiet ... intimately human moments that go along way towards making up for its larger narrative issues (IMO, etc, etc.). I've never played the Mother games (I need to get on that!), but I suspect I might develop similar feelings for those as well.