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Post by toei on Sept 6, 2019 12:24:11 GMT -5
In terms of side-scrollers, pretty much just Vice: Project Doom, that I remember. It's just very smooth, the action is fast, and there is much less of the annoying level and enemy design typical of NES games, though there's still a little. Even the bird-type enemies feel fair to deal with. For traditional platformers, Mario and Mario 3 are good, of course. I like Double Dragon 3. DD1 is decent, but there's a few things that bring it down, mostly the platforming towards the end. DD2 is just vastly inferior to the PCE-CD version. River City Ransom has a solid fighting engine, but it's mostly just grinding for stats. RPG-wise, I love DQIV and I like a few more (Glory of Heracles 2, Just Breed, etc.)
Part of me is convinced that there's a "NES bump" in retro circles. If a technically incompetent game like Batman Returns NES came out on another system, no one would like it, but somehow it's "good" when it's on the NES. The standards for what constitutes a good NES game just seem extraordinarily low, and I have no patience for a lot of the game design tropes found on the system. Batman NES has at least two bosses out of five with no clear patterns and unavoidable or nearly unavoidable attacks (level 3 and final) where the solution is just to mash the attack button and hope to win, and that's just objectively bad design to me. Re-spawning enemies suck. Some of the enemy types are horrible. There's too much damn wall-jumping. Infinite credits in short action games suck, too, and literally always act as a band-aid for bad balancing. I don't hate it like I hate Ninja Gaiden, but I've had enough.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 6, 2019 12:38:49 GMT -5
I think most people just think Batman Returns is decent at best. It's running at a 3.34 average on GameFAQs for example. It's just that I happen to like it well enough, although not nearly as much as other brawlers on the system (especially the ones you mentioned). Of course, I love DD2, so that's where we differ. The platforming certainly proves problematic at times, though; it took me a long time to get it down, and it was one of the reasons I didn't like them much initially.
As for Batman, I absolutely love the wall-jumping. It's very challenging and technical in spots, but I find the physics interesting to overcome. You're right, though, that a few bosses are really rough, and could have used a bit more technique.
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Post by Ex on Sept 6, 2019 12:47:41 GMT -5
toeiI grew up with the NES, so it's difficult for me to not be biased towards it. I don't know how I'd feel about the system's offerings if I were ten years younger, and it hadn't been an integral part of my childhood in the late '80s / early '90s. I believe I'd still like a lot of its games though. On the other hand, some of the games I've seen you praise are IMO very bad games. But that isn't meant to be a negative statement or imply "you're wrong"; it's actually good we have such diverse opinions on HRG. Keeps things interesting around here.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 6, 2019 12:51:58 GMT -5
Yes indeedy.
That being said, I just noticed that Batman Returns is rated higher than Double Dragon III on GameFAQs, which is an absolute travesty.
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Post by toei on Sept 6, 2019 13:08:07 GMT -5
Yes indeedy. That being said, I just noticed that Batman Returns is rated higher than Double Dragon III on GameFAQs, which is an absolute travesty. Well, a lot of people hate DD3 because it's hard, so I'm not surprised. It takes some experimentation before you figure out what works and what doesn't, and even though ultimately, it's not that complicated (always open combos with a kick, then get closer and punch or grab), people tend to be unforgiving of difficulty in beat-'em-ups compared to other genres because they just want to walk up to things and punch them. See Comix Zone, or even Streets of Rage 1 and 3 US, which all get some flack for supposedly being too hard. The arcade DD3 is trash, though, and nearly unplayable in the later levels. Also, didn't it basically create micro-transactions? So I could understand hating that game. Ex I have never once praised a bad game! I'm curious as to which games you're thinking of. EDIT - The only times I can remember where you expressed dislike of games I like involved Silent Hill and Earthbound. Anything else?
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Post by Sarge on Sept 6, 2019 13:14:27 GMT -5
Yeeeeeep. DD3 arcade is pure junk, and pretty much every iteration of that game that isn't the NES game sucks as well. DD3 is definitely tough, though. You've got to do some effective health management, and save Billy for that last encounter, where the Cyclone Kick reigns supreme. Also, I really, really like the original SoR. Not as much as SoR2, but the soundtrack, man. SoR2 has some thumpers, but pretty much the whole OST for SoR delivers a Grand Upper.
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Post by Ex on Sept 6, 2019 13:29:21 GMT -5
I have never once praised a bad game! "Objection your honor. Subjective testimony."I don't have a running tally in my head. One that comes to mind though; I think you said Danan: The Jungle Fighter was good, right? I tried it afterwards and thought that game was awful. This is not to say I don't agree with you at times. There have been games we both thought are good. Capcom's The Punisher beat 'em up is a recent example.
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Post by toei on Sept 6, 2019 13:44:56 GMT -5
Balderdash! My passionate video game beliefs override all notions of objectivity! I did say that Danan was pretty good, though my initial impression was also bad. It's one of those games that turns out to be better than you thought once you get past certain things. The hit detection feels a little off and the knife a little too stubby, but it's pretty close to the punches in Batman NES in both ways, actually, and it's got a nice little condensed RPG vibe going on, where it goes through all the plot beats of a standard RPG in like one hour. Plus I like the barbarian / tarzan theme, it's got exploration but doesn't feel aimless, and the basic gameplay is decent. So yeah, decent game. Ugly, though, but then so are most NES games. Sarge I'm big on SOR1 too. I've always liked how enemies just fly off aggressively when you defeat them, and using beer bottles as weapons. As time has passed, I've come to appreciate that it's a bit tougher, too, which keeps me focused and on my toes.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 6, 2019 14:20:57 GMT -5
Danan was solid enough, although no great shakes. I gave it a 6/10 earlier this year.
As regarding SoR, the twins are the toughest thing going outside of the last boss. Although I found a new strat (you might have even told me) that involves getting in the corner and using the back attack. Worked shockingly well.
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Post by Xeogred on Sept 6, 2019 16:43:40 GMT -5
Xeogred Like I said, you have to find the extra lives and extra credits in Maximum Carnage, because you get almost none at the start. They're hidden, but not that hard to find. In the first level, I think, there's one you can find by climbing on one of the walls and making your way up; there's another later on that you need to walk backwards a bit at the start of the level instead of walking forward as beat-'em-ups condition you to do. There's a fair amount of them. You also have to find the superhero summons which start to appear about midway through; those call on heroes like Felicia/The Black Cat, Iron Fist, Deathlok, and other obscure Marvel characters (like their Spawn ripoff, Nightwatch) to do some damage to enemies when you need them. They're very useful for the later part. There's a few other gameplay concept that you need to know about if you hope to beat it. More info here. It's the only western-made beat-'em-up from that period I really like, but yeah, it's less accessible then it should be. Separation Anxiety isn't as good, but it's not too bad either. Barely ever even heard of Separation Anxiety.
I'll consider giving them a shot.
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