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Post by Ex on Oct 2, 2018 14:54:48 GMT -5
I made a resolution that I'd write up a mini review of every game I beat this year. I think there are many good reasons to write a review for a game you just beat. I'd list them all, but I don't want to come off as preachy (bad habit, I know). But I think even just a few sentences to wrap up your experience is a nice bit of closure. Agreed. For example, right now thanks to HLTB I can go a full five years into the past and see what I played, when I played it, how long it took to beat, my thoughts on the game when I beat it, and my overall score rated. This record keeping has proven invaluable many times. Totally worth the effort. As for Silent Hill 2, I have known many gamers personally over the years, including my own brother, as well as having read online opinions of many gamers, who all praise SH2 to the rafters. I am excited to finally try it myself soon, but also hesitant, because I feel like if I end up not liking the game, I'll be drawn and quartered.
I joke, but only partially. Surely SH2 has to be better than SH1.* If it can manage that much, we're off to a good start.
*I really, really don't like SH1.
he's not a bad guy once it boils down to it I didn't mean bad as in Garret's "evil". Just bad as in he's a self-centered thieving misanthrope. Hardly your typical "hero" for a video game. The good stuff Garret ends up doing is more a result of self preservation than any higher altruism. Well I was only referring to the first one. Although the horror vibe returns somewhat for the third entry. Amen brother.
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Post by nullPointer on Oct 2, 2018 15:54:20 GMT -5
As for Silent Hill 2, I have known many gamers personally over the years, including my own brother, as well as having read online opinions of many gamers, who all praise SH2 to the rafters. I am excited to finally try it myself soon, but also hesitant, because I feel like if I end up not liking the game, I'll be drawn and quartered. I joke, but only partially. Surely SH2 has to be better than SH1.* If it can manage that much, we're off to a good start. *I really, really don't like SH1. Haha no need to worry about drawing and quartering! I think any piece of media widely regarded as 'a classic' requires continual fresh analysis to either confirm or refute its status as such. The true classics are the ones that still manage to stand the test of time even under such analysis. (... I'm pretty sure I just restated the text book definition of the True Scotsman logical fallacy there, lol) Question common convention! Sacred cows are made to be slaughtered! Part of what makes this community a great place is knowledgeable posters providing thoughtful analysis. That can't happen in an echo chamber. Regardless of whether you love it, hate it, or land somewhere in between it will be interesting to hear your thoughts.
I'll preface this by saying that I'm very much of the opinion that Silent Hill 2 is leagues better than the original Silent Hill. And I say that as someone who enjoys Silent Hill 1 quite a lot actually. My whole spiel on surrealism up there? Silent Hill 1 dabbles in it (vis-a-vis the whole 'Nowhere' segment as one example). Silent Hill 2 indulges in it. Silent Hill 1 plays it relatively straight and by the end of the game you have a pretty good idea of 'what happened'. Over the course of Silent Hill 2 you develop a good sense of narrative and events, but the resolution causes you to question the nature of several in-game events. Part of this is due to its masterful use of the 'unreliable narrator' as another one of its storytelling devices. It almost immediately invites a re-play. Let me know if I get too spoiler-y and I'll clam up about it.
But ... IIRC one of the things that you didn't like about SH1 was the control scheme? While there are improvements in SH2, as there would be for nearly any series that made the jump from PS1 to PS2, it still very much subscribes to the 'old school controls' approach to survival horror. Tank controls, slow turning, fixed camera angles, etc. are all very much the order of the day here. I also seem to recall that speed of movement was an issue for you in SH1? That actually is improved here, and you can cover considerable distance much more quickly and efficiently than in SH1. Movement in combat can be slow-ish, though if you can master the timing it becomes pretty manageable. I guess I feel like this is just part and parcel of survival horror; regular folks not trained in combat facing down unimaginable abominations. I usually just run unless there's no two ways around a particular enemy. At any rate if I were to make a prediction, I'd say the controls might be a potential sticking point for you in SH2. I could be totally wrong though! If the controls aren't an issue, I think you might find a lot to like about SH2 Dude. Yes! I feel very much the same way about The long hike into town at the beginning. Much has been made of it at this point, but as you stated, it takes on a lot of additional significance if this is all at least in part an internal struggle/journey for James. Actually I think it would be pretty interesting to compare the events in Silent Hill 2 against the stages of The Hero's Journey (with the Letter serving as The Call to Adventure, the long walk into town - The Crossing of the Threshold, etc. In some ways SH2 seems almost tailor made for that sort of analysis ... and I'm just the sort of goofy fanboy to indulge in that kind of hipster nonsense, lol)
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Post by toei on Oct 2, 2018 15:59:12 GMT -5
Ex Hey, if I can get away with not liking Super Metroid and pre-Symphony Castlevania, you can get away with not liking Silent Hill 2. I know that when it came to SH1, you said atmosphere was not sufficient for you and you had issues with various aspects of the gameplay that didn't bother me. SH2 is a lot like SH1, with the addition of a much more interesting story (SH1 did a good job of building up mystery, but it didn't amount to much in the end). I hope it clicks for you, because I agree with everyone that it's basically a masterpiece (and it's nice to agree with everyone for once). nullPointer I don't always feel like writing a proper review when I finish a game, either. Sometimes I'll just drop a few quick observations in the Retro Games Beaten thread, and there's a few I didn't even mention cause I was tired, busy, or they just weren't interesting. But writing reviews helps you define what you like and dislike and why, and ultimately helps you think clearly. And if you enjoy writing, it's a good way not to get rusty.
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Post by Ex on Oct 2, 2018 17:00:35 GMT -5
nullPointer toei I don't have a problem with tank controls. I can control a game with tank controls. I was controlling Alone in the Dark on DOS with its OG tank controls, long before most gamers were even introduced to the concept via Resident Evil. I can tank control with the best of 'em. Although by the time we were controlling 3D games with fully 3D environments, tank controls shouldn't have been a thing anymore. SH1 missed that memo. But still, Silent Hill's controls suck rather in its interface and combat design, not its tank controls.
I've tried getting into SH1 multiple times. Never sticks. Just talking about this game gets me angry. Fair warning. What I like about SH1:Interesting mysterious plot. Base concept of a cursed town is good. Very creepy atmosphere that stays creepy.
Fairly solid sound design.
CG movies are high quality.
Incredible 3D graphics for its platform from a technical standpoint. What I dislike about SH1:Really awful puzzles that are needlessly cryptic. Menus are obtuse and a pain in the ass to do even simple things. You have to look at the map all the time. The map takes about 5 seconds to load every time. Do the math. Endlessly respawning monsters hound the player incessantly. Straight up terrible level designs; they're boring and purposely designed to waste your life. Do you like huge empty buildings full of dozens upon dozens of locked doors? You'll know all those doors are locked, because you have to check each and every one of them, just in case one isn't. Oh, that was just the school. Now here's a hospital that's the same exact thing, only larger. Was that all fun? Now go do the "dark world" versions of both, and check all those doors again buddy, except now with more respawning monsters. Can I interest you in a giant sewer maze to get lost in next? Backtracking constantly through the foggy town itself, over and over and over. Why play a linear adventure when you could just spend ten minutes every hour, hiking through fog, being berated by flying monkey demons and dogs with really bad mange. Combat system is amateur hour garbage. You don't have to fight Ex! Yes I do. Yes you do. Enemies drop items you need occasionally, and often you can't explore and solve puzzles without killing the damn enemies. SH1 wears its influences on its sleeves in NEON; Twin Peaks and Hellraiser. Apparently a lot of gamers weren't familiar with these influences when they first played SH1, so this game's ideas seemed really cool and unique to them. Silent Hill's camera is like a raging alcoholic dad who beats on you every time you breath. - The original Silent Hill has aged like rotten milk (it was never very fresh milk to begin with). If you think I'm wrong, cool! Go back and play the whole thing through again, with nostalgia goggles firmly off. Also no strategy guide allowed this time bucko. If you still like it after that, fair enough.
-
While I'm on a rant about survival horror stuff I don't like... One thing I get frustrated with, when discussing early survival horror, is genre apologists pretend that inadequate controls, bad camera angles, and sloppy combat systems were always intentional. Bullshit. I don't buy it, I've never bought that argument. I could go on a really long diatribe explaining why, but I don't have time right now. It boils down to these things were part of this genre's initial development, and happened as a byproduct of inexperience with new technology (3D graphics), and inexperience designing gameplay to utilize said new technology (3D game design). However early survival horror games sold well because of other reasons, despite these warts.
Unfortunately said warts became genre hallmarks, rather than stepping stones, and thus you still had PS2 survival horror games with tank controls and shit cameras. Players were used to this crap, developers were used to being able to get away with it. So I'm telling you inadequate controls, bad cameras, sloppy combat... all of it was done out of habit and laziness, not because "oh look we're disempowering the player in an intentionally clever subversive way". No, that was not the case. Developers tried to subvert the player via limited ammo, sparse saves, low vitality, forced stealth, un-killable monsters, false pretenses, stuff like that was intentional subversion. Bad camera angles, incompetent controls, and shoddy combat were never purposeful parts of that equation. They were there out of pure habitual laziness. People who believe they weren't are inventing clothes onto old naked emperors.
And that's my rant for today folks.
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Post by toei on Oct 2, 2018 17:37:47 GMT -5
I played Silent Hill for the first time in 2013, brah. Nostalgia had nothing to do with it. I found the combat perfectly fine. You shoot the monsters a couple times, then walk up to them and stomp on them to make sure they don't get up (did you know you could and should do that?). Most of the monsters you have to fight don't respawn; when outside in the fog in larger areas, it's better to just keep running. The dutch angles are great, and do a lot for the atmosphere. Of course they're deliberate! They're straight out of the horror movie playbook. It's much easier to just have boring, straight angles. You may not like the result, but it has nothing to do with laziness. Most of those locked doors can eventually be unlocked; the point is to find how to navigate those buildings-gone-mad, adventure-game style. I do agree about some of the puzzles being too cryptic. I actually had to look one or two up in a FAQ because I swear the hints meant nothing at all to me. They're more reasonable in the sequel.
Also, Hellraiser? The main cinematic influence on Silent Hill as a series is Jacob's Ladder. I re-watched Hellraiser recently and it's an obnoxious, mean-spirited sadomasochistic fantasy. Twin Peaks, maybe, if you use it as a shorthand for surrealism. I'm not a David Lynch fan, yet I loved Silent Hill.
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Post by nullPointer on Oct 2, 2018 18:01:47 GMT -5
What I like about SH1:Interesting mysterious plot. Base concept of a cursed town is good. Very creepy atmosphere that stays creepy. Fairly solid sound design. CG movies are high quality. Incredible 3D graphics for its platform from a technical standpoint. What I dislike about SH1:Really awful puzzles that are needlessly cryptic. Menus are obtuse and a pain in the ass to do even simple things. You have to look at the map all the time. The map takes about 5 seconds to load every time. Do the math. Endlessly respawning monsters hound the player incessantly. Straight up terrible level designs; they're boring and purposely designed to waste your life. Do you like huge empty buildings full of dozens upon dozens of locked doors? You'll know all those doors are locked, because you have to check each and every one of them, just in case one isn't. Oh, that was just the school. Now here's a hospital that's the same exact thing, only larger. Was that all fun? Now go do the "dark world" versions of both, and check all those doors again buddy, except now with more respawning monsters. Can I interest you in a giant sewer maze to get lost in next? Backtracking constantly through the foggy town itself, over and over and over. Why play a linear adventure when you could just spend ten minutes every hour, hiking through fog, being berated by flying monkey demons and dogs with really bad mange. Combat system is amateur hour garbage. You don't have to fight Ex! Yes I do. Yes you do. Enemies drop items you need occasionally, and often you can't explore and solve puzzles without killing the damn enemies. SH1 wears its influences on its sleeves in NEON; Twin Peaks and Hellraiser. Apparently a lot of gamers weren't familiar with these influences when they first played SH1, so this game's ideas seemed really cool and unique to them. Silent Hill's camera is like a raging alcoholic dad who beats on you every time you breath. I feel like SH2 doubles down on everything you enjoyed about SH1, exponentially in some cases. I think it also addresses several of your grievances, though not all. You're still pretty reliant maps, but there's also some degree of automapping; locked doors are marked as such, points of interest are circled, etc. Dead monsters tend to stay dead, although the game will occasionally throw you a curve ball in areas which you thought you cleared. Those tend to be the exception though. There's not as much backtracking, though it's still present moreso in enclosed environments than in the full town proper. I think most of the other grievances will come down to personal preference (level designs, puzzle design, menus, combat, etc.). I feel like SH2 handily outshines SH1 in these areas, but there will obviously be some similarities (particularly so in menu layout IIRC?). You do still occasionally get screwed by the camera angle. Fixed camera angles, yo. One thing you said stood out to me though, and it does give me pause to consider how much it effected my subsequent enjoyment of the game. The first time I played Silent Hill 2, I did use a strategy guide, particularly so when I started going for all the various endings (some of the conditions that determine which ending you get are incredibly obscure and specific). I don't need a guide these days, but it does give me pause to consider how much I might have enjoyed the game had I initially gone through it trying every locked door (yes ... there are still quite a few of those - maybe half and half? For the most part though, the game does a better job about guiding you where you need to go). I think Silent Hill 2 draws inspiration from a few different sources, but there's one theatrical source in particular that stands out here and to my knowledge it's not something that was an acknowledged inspiration in the first game. It's slightly obscure-ish(?) but the references are explicit in a number of cases. It probably doesn't hurt that I'm a big fan of the movie as well (and unsurprisingly it's a movie that messed with my head when I watched it as a kid). No spoilers. I feel like I might be trying to Silent Hill 2 it too hard though. (Slaps roof of SH2 "This bad boy can hold so much torment and existential dread") I need to clam up about it so as not to overdo it on the preconceptions I'd completely agree that some of the gameplay characteristics we identify as 'Survival Horror' weren't intentional so much as the result of developers working within the technological constraints and conventions of their time (tank controls, fixed camera angles, janky combat, etc), particularly in the early days. It's interesting though how those traits became inherently associated with Survival Horror. Heck for that matter it's interesting to consider how Survival Horror became such a specific 'genre'. Really what we're talking about are action adventure games (sometimes weighted more heavily towards action, sometimes towards adventure), with a very specific set of tropes, some of which were in fact these very quirks that started as technological constraints moreso than any carefully planned feature set. It's equally interesting then that some genre stalwarts were less than enthused when survival horror started moving away from these tropes ("OMG can we even call Resident Evil 'survival horror' after RE4?" ) Edit:The main cinematic influence on Silent Hill as a series is Jacob's Ladder. I re-watched Hellraiser recently and it's an obnoxious, mean-spirited sadomasochistic fantasy. Twin Peaks, maybe, if you use it as a shorthand for surrealism. I'm not a David Lynch fan, yet I loved Silent Hill. Ding ding. I was sort of gilding the lilly here, but yes, absolutely this. Silent Hill 2 goes all in on its Jacob's Ladder influence. I would say that there's definitely some Hellraiser influence in the visual design if nothing else though (all the rusty, blood covered chains, hooks, skinless corpses, etc are pretty evocative of the designs in Hellraiser, which if nothing else, is considered an iconic landmark in horror visuals). As opposed to Hellraiser, I will say that Silent Hill (as a series) is much more cerebral and sophisticated in its narrative approach. Take that, Clive Barker.
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Post by Xeogred on Oct 2, 2018 19:27:28 GMT -5
Dang, I missed a lot today, let's see... first off yeah, about the surrealism discussion earlier, Jacob's Ladder is one of my favorite movies for sure. Saw it a few years ago and was pleasantly surprised and happy to see the true Silent Hill film. (PS guys, I like Hellraiser 2 more than the first... yeah it's campier but the labyrinth and monster designs in this one were amazing! Great vibes).
nullPointer : I guess I'm the resident Dracula X hater here. The pits and pillars littering the final boss fight with Dracula really took the cake in just... annoying level design to me. Level 2's falling bridge is so ridiculously pixel perfect too, can't stand it. You mentioned a big issue I have with the game though, it came out YEARS after Super CV4 and yet feels backwards in every single department, even the music and visuals to me. Now granted, I think it's obvious whatever team had very little time to cook the game up as they just wanted some kind of official localized prequel to Symphony of the Night. I think Dracula X is a huge "what could have been"... Konami were killing it on the 16bit platforms, if given enough time and resources I think it could have been another legendary game that maybe could have even surpassed Rondo. As it stands though, it's not terrible, but easily my least favorite of the 16/32bit entries. Also... I don't think Ex is ever knocking us specifically about nostalgia, we're veterans who bathe in retro gaming and have new experiences with them not tied down by release dates. I played Rondo of Blood just a few years ago on the Wii VC and Silent Hill 1 somewhere in 2012-2014 like toei too (in fact I went through most of the franchise all at once I believe). Both games blew me away. Rondo is cool in that it's more of a boss gauntlet styled frenzy than most of the other CV's and frankly, I like the melodic Classicvania tunes more than the symphonic style of the post-SoTN games, and Rondo's tunes are omega ear feeling awesomeness. Silent Hill 1 took maybe an hour or so to click but once it did, I loved everything about it. I'm enjoying nullPointer's dissection of SH2 throughout the thread, heh.
Since toei is such a big fan of SH1 like myself, I'll be excited to see his reaction to SH3... since it fully realizes that hellscape take on the otherworld and is graphically a mindblowing game. Story/character wise it's not my favorite, but mechanically it feels like it perfected everything the first two games were going for. SH2's otherworld is more personal and we don't need to spoil the details, I'll just simply say I love how different they are... yet I also appreciate how SH3 is an evolution and direct continuation of the first game. I just hope to live and see more SH4 fans someday. Character and emotionally it doesn't cut as deep as SH2, but SH4 is more about the "what" rather than the "why" in a lot of ways to me if that makes sense... and the story/world of SH4 is utterly insane in the greatest way ever. One of my favorite stories and ideas in the whole medium for sure, I don't think I'll ever play anything quite like it ever again. It's brilliantly weird as fuck.
--- Okay for me, I think my main plans for this month so far would be: - King of Demons / Majuu-Ou - Silent Hill 2 (first time checking out the Xbox version and whatever extras that and the PS2 Greatest Hits release have) Other ideas: - Silent Hill 4 (first time Xbox version)
- Fatal Frame 2 (first time Xbox version) - Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners - some HRG illegal titles on Steam, some indie stuff like a Fatal Frame-looking thing, etc - More Castlevania Yeah nothing too crazy for my plans yet. But I certainly love talking in depth about this genre and I'm pretty much always playing some of this stuff all year around anyways, haha. Koudelka and Shadow Hearts really fit the bill this year too.
Sweet dreams.
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Post by toei on Oct 2, 2018 19:49:06 GMT -5
nullPointer True, there are visual elements descended from Hellraiser. I think Clive Barker's at his best (for me) when he moves away from the psychosexual stuff and into all-out weird disgusting-monsters-are-cool-people, goddamn-you-Alberta-rednecks stuff (Nightbreed). There's accidentally a Nightbreed game on the Amiga, but by all accounts it's a dreadful euro-platformer: I'll reiterate what I said about the fixed camera angles, though. That they are fixed may have been linked to technological limits initially; but the particular angles chosen as not due to chance. There are tons of great angles used in Silent Hill or Resident Evil 2 where it's obvious they studied cinema. Even Alone in the Dark had a few great ones. That this, for example: Do you (meaning Ex or anyone else) really think the house is that tilted towards the left by accident? It's a dutch angle, often used in horror movies to symbolize and reinforce the feeling of strangeness and insanity. It would've been just as easy to pick something more straightforward. Like it or not, it's a design choice.
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Post by Xeogred on Oct 2, 2018 19:56:33 GMT -5
All I'm going to say is that I'm very skeptical about Ex liking SH2, based off the list of issues he has with the first. I don't know how to steer him back on the correct path though, I just don't see this genre being for him. Which is interesting, since I think survival horror is quite close to the adventure stuff, even though I'm not an expert on those.
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Post by toei on Oct 2, 2018 22:44:03 GMT -5
Quick question: considering the influence of horror movies on horror games, does anybody know of a game based on a horror movie that's genuinely good? Preferably HRG-compliant? I don't mean in a "Clock Tower is a lot like Dario Argento's movies" way, but a genuine licensed game.
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