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Post by Ex on Jun 7, 2019 14:29:01 GMT -5
I'd routinely put up scores of 70+ to nothing in TSB. While we're on a tangent of a tangent, did you ever give this 2008 release a try?: Curious as to your thoughts if you did.
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Post by dunpeal2064 on Jun 7, 2019 14:42:24 GMT -5
I know that is a terribly unpopular opinion in the eyes of the "hardcore". But let me explain that 1CC'ing an arcade game doesn't impress me at all. Beating a game by sheer muscle memory attrition is something a chimp could do. Tons of old action games rely on that rudimentary crux. Which means that if you simply burn enough hours of your life away internalizing every moment of the experience, you can always win in a purely robotic fashion. You will always know what button to push and exactly when as a matter of historical recollection. I can see why 1ccs might come off this way, but I think its a bit of an overblown perception from those that have never tried to 1cc a game (Or at least a shmup, I can't speak for other genres). I get why they come off that way, but its really not the case. I've 1cc'd a few dozen shmups at this point, and not a one of them do I have entirely memorized or routed. I can still go back and get whooped in a shmup I've 1cc'd in the past, and playing them for a 1cc isn't some hardcore "look at how cool I am" thing, its just playing the games in the only way that gives them any meaning at all besides content tourism. 1CC'ing, say, Dodonpachi, feels about the same as just beating Contra 3 or Castlevania 1, or playing an RPG or Adventure game without a guide. Its the base level of actually playing the game. I'd wager most people could 1CC Dodonpachi within the same week that they started playing it, even if they only played an hour or two a day. As far as their impressiveness, of course its all up to the viewer, but I still find them impressive. Humans aren't so good at memo and execution at that level, and I've never seen a high score run of a shmup that was perfectly or roboticly executed. There is a ton of improvisation in lots of runs, but they tend to be hard to notice if you aren't more familiar with that given game. Its also generally not known how to optimally play these games, and there is a ton of risk/reward based on how the run has gone up to that point. If you watch a player narrate a superplay, there is a ton of on-the-spot thinking going on. Robotically executing what you've memorized will almost never work in these games.
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Post by toei on Jun 7, 2019 15:10:17 GMT -5
When I beat an old-school action game I like to do a replay of it before I move on, so I've 1CCed a few of the shmups I've played through my Shmup Noob thread because they were just designed in a way that by the time you could beat them, you could pretty much 1CC them already. Same for Comix Zone, where you only earn two extra credits in the game, and using a credit sends you back to the stage's beginning - if you can beat it at all, you can beat it with just one credit. Also seconding what dunpeal2064 said about robotic memorization - that might work with robots, but I find it doesn't work with me. Even when I am in the process of memorizing a part of a game that needs it, I usually end up doing a bunch of little things differently with different runs. Perfectly repeating everything robotically would actually be really hard.
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Post by dunpeal2064 on Jun 7, 2019 15:19:37 GMT -5
Yeah, beating any checkpoint-based game is basically the same as 1cc'ing it. I've found that I can go back to those and get a 1cc in 1-2 runs after clearing them with credit-feeding. And luckily, even without aiming for a 1cc, those games still offer a good experience, you can't negate their design and gameplay with credits. Its the instant respawn shmups that I think credit-feeding really does an injustice to. Back when collectors first picked up on Cave games and everyone around the forums was buying Futari and feeding through it once, it was pretty sad as a huge fan of that game to not even be able to have any sort of basic discussion on its design or balance at all. When I got the Saturn port of Garegga, which you have to clear to unlock all the options for, I literally cleared it without looking to not spoil the game. Whenever I heard the credit countdown, I'd just press start and then continue doing something else, until I heard the ending playing. Thats... not how these games were designed to be experienced
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Post by Sarge on Jun 7, 2019 15:21:44 GMT -5
Ex: I did play through that one, actually. It's a decent time, although it misses some of the magic of TSB. It does bring some interesting things to the table, though: you can create your own character, and build up their stats over the course of a season. And in classic D&D style, you can mix-max stats as necessary to build up the areas you really need. So you can have a really wimpy quarterback but his throwing stats are pretty good. By the end, though, I had him as an amazing thrower and runner. The better runners also have traits where they can make plays like bursting ahead through would-be tacklers, although ironically this can actually kick in while you're making an evasive move and you'll end up in the arms of a different tackler. I didn't actually buy it on launch, mainly because it wasn't as good as I'd hoped, but I do own a copy now.
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Post by toei on Jun 7, 2019 16:00:48 GMT -5
Yeah, beating any checkpoint-based game is basically the same as 1cc'ing it. I've found that I can go back to those and get a 1cc in 1-2 runs after clearing them with credit-feeding. And luckily, even without aiming for a 1cc, those games still offer a good experience, you can't negate their design and gameplay with credits. Its the instant respawn shmups that I think credit-feeding really does an injustice to. Back when collectors first picked up on Cave games and everyone around the forums was buying Futari and feeding through it once, it was pretty sad as a huge fan of that game to not even be able to have any sort of basic discussion on its design or balance at all. When I got the Saturn port of Garegga, which you have to clear to unlock all the options for, I literally cleared it without looking to not spoil the game. Whenever I heard the credit countdown, I'd just press start and then continue doing something else, until I heard the ending playing. Thats... not how these games were designed to be experienced That's definitely true if you have infinite credits, but if you have a reasonably limited amount, is it really so bad? Personally I'd rather you can take a few shots. Some games respawn you instantly when you lose a life, but make you restart the level when you lose a credit, for example. That works for me. I just don't like when action games have infinite continues - Ninja Gaiden, Ninja Warriors, etc - as I feel like it devalues the experience and it's often an excuse not to balance games properly.
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Post by Ex on Jun 7, 2019 16:15:03 GMT -5
I can still go back and get whooped in a shmup I've 1cc'd in the past Well sure, if I went back to games I've aced in the past, that doesn't mean I'll automatically be great at them again immediately. There is such a thing as being out of practice. There are games I had as a kid where I knew every square inch of the experience by heart, but I hardly remember that level of detail now. What I was talking about though, is being hot and heavy into a particular given game at one time, memorizing it's flow and challenges long enough to take it down on one life. Robotically executing what you've memorized will almost never work in these games. It might not work for every shmup in existence (i.e. extreme bullet hells), but one could certainly memorize the correct pattern to overtake traditional (80s, early 90s) shmups. I know this, because I did it myself with games like Astro Warrior (SMS), Life Force (NES), and UN Squadron (SNES). And I promise I'm no shmup savant by any means! I did play through that one, actually. It's a decent time, although it misses some of the magic of TSB. Interesting, thanks for info! - Unfortunately I'm going to re-rail this topic for a minute; because tonight gentlemen, I shall embark upon Disaster Report. If all goes to plan, I'll play this evening and report with my initial impressions. It's hard to tear myself from Nostalgia - but for the service of the community I shall.
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Post by dunpeal2064 on Jun 7, 2019 16:15:32 GMT -5
That's definitely true if you have infinite credits, but if you have a reasonably limited amount, is it really so bad? Yeah fixed continues I'm alright with, especially for games designed for home play, since they were likely designed with those continues in mind. I also don't mind infinite continues if the game sets me back when they are used. Its particularly the instant respawn, infinite continues arcade shmups that I think are troublesome. Some games do things to try to tell you to only use one credit (Resetting your score, hiding extra bosses or loops, giving you bad endings that tell you to not continue), but when they get played in MAME or more direct arcade ports, the free infinite continues tend to just override that. It might not work for every shmup in existence (i.e. extreme bullet hells), but one could certainly memorize the correct pattern to overtake traditional (80s, early 90s) shmups. Yeah thats true, but I don't think thats analogous to 1CC play. You could have 1CC'd those shmups well before you had memorized everything in them, I think. Certainly so for the lots of shooters that give you safety nets like bombs, shields, or lots of extra lives. I can't even play the last 2 stages of Dodonpachi, but thats what the 37 bombs are for (And why my score sucks!) I certainly have never memorized everything in any shmup other than Futari and DFK, so you've put more of that sort of work into the genre than I have! But yes, on topic, I look forward to what you think after your first evening with Disaster Report. Hopefully your first report on the game isn't a disaster!
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Post by Sarge on Jun 7, 2019 16:31:37 GMT -5
*Looks up price of Disaster Report*
$40 complete? Geez, I remember seeing it in a bargain bin a while back. It looked super cheesy, and I just breezed right over it. Might have to pay more attention to this type of stuff.
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Post by Ex on Jun 7, 2019 16:34:55 GMT -5
*Looks up price of Disaster Report* $40 complete? Geez, I remember seeing it in a bargain bin a while back. It looked super cheesy, and I just breezed right over it. Might have to pay more attention to this type of stuff. Once upon a time I had brand new copies of Disaster Report and Raw Danger!. But I sold them off during the great 2008 PS2 purge, when I was building up cash for buying Xbox games. The idea being I could just play burned copies of PS2 games instead. In hindsight that was a really dumbass thing to do, but I do still have about 40 legit copies of PS2 JRPGs left thankfully.
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