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Post by toei on Mar 24, 2021 11:33:34 GMT -5
To be clear, I wasn't positing that 2D style fighters with 3D graphic characters were an actual improvement over traditional sprite based ones. I was stating the impetus for the graphical approach was based on consumer interest in polygonal graphics at the time. It was a novelty to play a standard fighter but with 3D graphics. Also, it stands to reason that animating 3D polygonal characters for a fighting game, is far less labor intensive than hand drawing tons of frames of 2D sprite animation. So it was likely a cost cutting measure for fighters in the '00s. I'm pretty sure 3D fighters are a lot more expensive to make. The staff increased exponentially with 3D games, fighters included. 2D fighters can have a really niche audience and still get a bunch of sequels, because development costs are generally low; that's also why there are so many indie 2D fighters. All the 3D fighters that weren't big hits quickly faded.
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Post by Ex on Mar 24, 2021 11:44:39 GMT -5
I don't doubt that modern 3D fighters, especially ones starting in the 7th gen, are more expensive to produce than 2D fighters of their respective eras. 7th gen and beyond 3D fighters tend to have really impressive production values.
Considering 3D graphics of the late '90s though, I'm not sure how much more a 3D fighter would have cost to produce, versus a 2D fighter in that time period. It would be very interesting to see a development cost comparison of say Wild Ambition versus Mark of the Wolves.
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Post by toei on Mar 24, 2021 12:03:37 GMT -5
I don't doubt that modern 3D fighters, especially ones starting in the 7th gen, are more expensive to produce than 2D fighters of their respective eras. 7th gen and beyond 3D fighters tend to have really impressive production values. Considering 3D graphics of the late '90s though, I'm not sure how much more a 3D fighter would have cost to produce, versus a 2D fighter in that time period. It would be very interesting to see a development cost comparison of say Wild Ambition versus Mark of the Wolves. I agree that it would be, and it would be nice to have accurate sales data for games of that era, too, just for fun; however keep in mind that the basic 3D of the time constituted impressive production values then; it was state-of-the-art technology, and it was expensive. Also, Capcom and SNK did recycle sprites and animations, especially with their yearly games, so it's not like cost-cutting measures don't exist with 2D fighters. I know there are 3D fighters that recycle animations (or re-use motion-acting data, however that works), but they pretty much always create new character models. The thing with 2D fighters is that it's ok to be retro or less than state-of-the-art, as long as it's charming; with 3D, gamers won't give you that leeway.
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Post by Xeogred on Mar 24, 2021 13:08:39 GMT -5
I don't doubt that modern 3D fighters, especially ones starting in the 7th gen, are more expensive to produce than 2D fighters of their respective eras. 7th gen and beyond 3D fighters tend to have really impressive production values. Considering 3D graphics of the late '90s though, I'm not sure how much more a 3D fighter would have cost to produce, versus a 2D fighter in that time period. It would be very interesting to see a development cost comparison of say Wild Ambition versus Mark of the Wolves. I agree that it would be, and it would be nice to have accurate sales data for games of that era, too, just for fun; however keep in mind that the basic 3D of the time constituted impressive production values then; it was state-of-the-art technology, and it was expensive. Also, Capcom and SNK did recycle sprites and animations, especially with their yearly games, so it's not like cost-cutting measures don't exist with 2D fighters. I know there are 3D fighters that recycle animations (or re-use motion-acting data, however that works), but they pretty much always create new character models. The thing with 2D fighters is that it's ok to be retro or less than state-of-the-art, as long as it's charming; with 3D, gamers won't give you that leeway. I can't speak for 90's 3D tech, but they may have been able to copy and paste the skeletal structure of some characters, then inflate or deflate the polygons for a body type. Then you put textures on over that and give them unique animations per character. Who knows, but yeah probably a very different way of design even for the same genre. As SNK must have found out the hard way...
I wish legacy publishers still weren't so allergic to sprites/pixels as some of them still seem to be. Indie devs and new fresh talent have proven that the style can still be done. Imagine if SF went back to ridiculously detailed sprites? Or at least maybe for another Alpha entry. But then there's Arc System Works cooking up wizardry with stuff like DBZF, which is Unreal Engine. So many people just prefer to use Unreal nowadays. I guess it just has the tools and flexibility or something.
I want Mega Man X9 with sprites again at least...
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Post by Ex on Mar 24, 2021 20:55:02 GMT -5
keep in mind that the basic 3D of the time constituted impressive production values then; it was state-of-the-art technology, and it was expensive I agree that producing a fully 3D game in the late '90s, such as an FPS, Z-axis platformer, racer, or open world RPG, would have been quite expensive. If most or all of the '90s game is rendered in polygons, yes very cost intensive, no doubt. In contrast, I'm not sure how expensive a fighting game that solely used 3D graphics for the characters alone, would have cost, versus paying people to hand draw and animate all the sprite frames instead. I'm not outright denying you are correct, but I think we'd need a third party opinion from someone with experience in '90s game development to weigh in. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone personally that fits that description. Modern 3D fighters tend to use high mesh polygons for everything, including the backgrounds, with all kinds of special shaders and lighting effects. I'm sure a game like Street Fighter V was expensive to make, compared to say Skullgirls.
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Post by toei on Mar 24, 2021 22:25:55 GMT -5
There's gotta be a making-of documentary about Virtua Fighter or Tekken somewhere that'll have some info about the methods used at the time. I'll just add two things: -I don't think the people who drew sprites for just about any Japanese company were very well paid. I've read a lot of '90s interviews with Japanese devs who complain about being poor; sometimes they even mention salaries. They're not drawing cartoons, either. The amount of animation involved in a fighting game is limited. I just read an interview recently with the main character designer on Street Fighter 2. He says it took him a month to draw all the graphics for Chun-Li. By the mid-to-late '90s, animation in 2D fighters had definitely improved. Even if you had, say, 5 times more frames per character, and about 20 characters... that's 100 months worth of full-time salary for a poorly paid artist, if they're not recycling or retouching sprites (which they frequently did on sequels and KOF-style games). It still doesn't sound like all that much money. -As to the point about fully polygonal games VS polygonal character and 2D backgrounds, it depends if we're still talking about just those Capcom & SNK 2.5d fighters, or 3D fighters as a whole. It wasn't rare to see that mix on consoles (including in those games), but most big 3D fighters in the 32-bit era debuted in the arcades, and the arcade originals were typically 100% polygons. Also, Capcom is Capcom, and there's an absurd number of Street Fighter game. I wonder if Street Fighter Ex having polygons wasn't just an excuse to release more SF games? There is no company that will milk a franchise like them. I haven't played the Ex series. Is there anything that sets it apart gameplay-wise? Doesn't have to be in a major way, but any gimmick that would justify the existence of the series apart from the polygons? Cause it's not like Capcom had stopped making 2d fighters. For SNK, it was different, because everything was riding on the success of those games. They were trying to keep up with the times, it failed, they went back to 2d, it wasn't enough, they went bankrupt. Capcom had no issue making successful 3d games in other genres, like Resident Evil.
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Post by Ex on Mar 24, 2021 22:49:56 GMT -5
As to the point about fully polygonal games VS polygonal character and 2D backgrounds, it depends if we're still talking about just those Capcom & SNK 2.5d fighters, or 3D fighters as a whole. I was indeed talking about 2D style fighters with 3D polygon character models. Stuff like Samurai Shodown: Warriors Rage not Soul Edge. I'm not sure what Capcom's impetus was to pay Arika to develop three SF:EX games. Apparently there was a demographic for this sort of fighting game design aesthetic.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 25, 2021 23:13:18 GMT -5
Played some 3D fighters on the best 3D system of the fifth generation, the N64. First, War Gods. Didn't finish it. I suck at it. And it has limited continues. And while I may suck at it, it also sucks, so whatevs. Didn't finish it, but I'd probably give it a 2.5. Secondly, Dark Rift. I also didn't finish this - got to Stage 5, lost, and the boredom set in. It's more of a traditional-feeling fighter, despite the characters, closer to a Virtua Fighter or Tekken. It's better than War Gods, but I still didn't care for it. 4/10. Lastly, Xena: Warrior Princess - Talisman of Fate. I did finish this one, owing to finding a few exploitable combos and just going to town on opponents. I actually didn't dislike this one, despite not really knowing entirely what I was doing. I'd give it a 5/10. It was fine for what it was. One of the more interesting things, though, is that it uses 3D a lot more than the other two; you can move in any direction, although to block you have to hold away from your opponent. There are ways to pull special moves that I didn't find, although I accidentally pulled Xena's chakram toss a few times. (Of course I was going to use Xena!)
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Post by Xeogred on Mar 26, 2021 12:18:29 GMT -5
Taking bullets for the team Sarge .
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Post by toei on Mar 26, 2021 12:45:11 GMT -5
Sarge Some people like the Fighter's Destiny games. Those are about the only N64 3D fighters anyone likes, so you may want to check them out.
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