|
|
Post by Sarge on Apr 15, 2019 12:43:33 GMT -5
So, as the anointed "Lord of Platformers" (thanks, Ex  ), I'm quite curious as to what generation everyone thinks has the "best" platformers. I mean, if you want to drill down to specific systems, that's cool, too. I just didn't think 8/16-bit quite captured the essence of the question, given that in many cases, bits are meaningless. (Looking at you, TG-16!) I guess bundled into all that is whether you also prefer 2D or 3D platformers. My opinion on the matter: I prefer 2D, although I quite enjoy several 3D platformers as well. For example, Super Mario Galaxy was an absolute joy to play. The Ratchet and Clank series was also a blast, as were the Sly Cooper games. But my love will always be reserved for 2D in the end. As for what generation... I actually am of two minds on this. The problem is that some of the absolute greatest platformers of all time reside in the fourth generation: Yoshi's Island, Super Metroid, Mega Man X, Demon's Crest, Gunstar Heroes, Monster World IV, not to mention my second-favorite game of all time, Symphony of the Night, being part of the fifth generation. But while that generation feels incredibly top-heavy, I'm predisposed towards the third-generation platformers, and in particular the NES (surprise, surprise) for my platforming fix. Between all the Mario, Mega Man, Castlevania, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, Sunsoft and Natsume games, even some of the Taito stuff (hey, Little Samson!), it feels like that generation just has an embarrassment of riches. So I'm rolling with third-gen, although I would desperately miss the other generations. So what are your favorites? What do you look for in a platformer? Do you prefer challenge? Spectacle? Unique mechanics? Tightly-designed stages or sprawling, multi-route levels like Sonic? Inquiring minds want to know? (I'll try to address some of that for myself as we go.) |
|
|
|
Post by toei on Apr 15, 2019 16:47:58 GMT -5
It's hard for me to conceive of Yoshi's Island and Gunstar Heroes as being part of the same genre. I'm only really interested in sidescrollers that put a greater emphasis on fighting than jumping, and while I like some run-n-guns, I kind of think of those as a separate genre, too, though I guess a game like Sunset Riders is pretty damn close to Shinobi, if you think about it. There's a few good ones on the NES, Master System, and TG-16. The Legendary Axe, Kenseiden, Zillion 2, Vice: Project Doom, etc. That said, the NES also has a ton of bad examples of the genre games that don't appeal to me, because of the popularity and influence of Mega Man and Castlevania. The SNES almost abandoned that genre, with only a few b-tier titles like Run Saber to keep it alive. For me, the Genesis is king, with 3 Shinobi games, Mystic Defender, Jewel Master, Rolling Thunder 2 & 3, and even lesser (but still good) titles like Dahna and Shadow Blaster. And definitely Atomic Runner, if you count it. Overall, I'd say the best years of the genre are from 1986 to 1993, which doesn't quite fit in with the whole generations thing, as it really began in the arcades, anyways.
I do enjoy some exploration, provided it doesn't just mean "backtracking" and actually rewards you with useful or cool stuff, but I also dig short, tight stages that keep it moving. Actual platforming is a nice and fun addition in small doses, but tiresome and frustrating when there's too much of it. Fighting is best when it's fast, intense and precise.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Apr 15, 2019 17:02:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I thought about that. Run-and-gun games might have platforming, but it's more limited. I debated putting it in my list, but it's probably my favorite Genesis "platformer", so it went there. Of course, as you mentioned, there are the Shinobi games, of which I find Shinobi III to be a masterclass of design.
I do tend to agree that the SNES feels a bit weaker in the platformer department. Especially considering how strong the NES was (in my opinion). I know we missed out on some good ones in Japan, but even so, it doesn't have nearly the depth of the NES library.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ex on Apr 15, 2019 17:12:06 GMT -5
I'm quite curious as to what generation everyone thinks has the "best" platformers. I'm gonna have to say 2D. Which bit-tier is a harder call. But it's gonna be 8-bit at the tippy top. Specifically the NES. Something about the NES's way of rendering physics through code via its specific hardware, just makes its good platformers feel "perfect". I'm talking about the feel of the movement, the weight of the jumping, the arc resistance of the fall. For some reason 16-bit platformers just feel more "floaty" to me, even the really good ones. I don't have to tell you that the NES has an absolutely killer line-up of platformers. Including my all time top favorite of the genre; Bionic Commando. The 16-bit world has some seriously good stuff too of course. And there's some really good 32-bit releases out there as well. But all of that is ultimately eclipsed by the tsunami of fantasticness that came before in 8-bit. I'm including other 8-bit systems as well there, aside from NES, including handheld stuff. As for 3D platformers, that's more of a mixed bag. I have certainly played some good ones (nearly always made by Nintendo), but camera slop often causes unhappiness in 3D platforming. Not to mention the Z-axis can make jumping much more tactical, which slows down the flow versus a breezy 2D affair. That's a good question, and I will have to come back to this when I have more time. I do love me some platformers, albeit not -quite- as much as you. I'll try to think of good stuff that isn't just the usual suspects. For now here's one I recommend you play through that I really enjoyed:  Umihara Kawase Shun: Second Edition KanzenbanI like for my games to fight back. As long as it's not just completely insanely unfair stuff that's punitive just for the sake of being punitive. I am always a fan of innovation. I do not like playing through carbon copy clones of what came before. I love it when a game takes a simple twist and builds its whole premise around it. Bionic Commando (swinging) and Gargoyle's Quest (hovering) are good examples. For platforming, I prefer tightly designed stages. I don't mind alternate routes, but they need to loop back around to the main show. I like hand-crafted super focused level designs. The Mega Man games are a good example of that. |
|
|
|
Post by toei on Apr 15, 2019 17:18:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I thought about that. Run-and-gun games might have platforming, but it's more limited. I debated putting it in my list, but it's probably my favorite Genesis "platformer", so it went there. Of course, as you mentioned, there are the Shinobi games, of which I find Shinobi III to be a masterclass of design. Gunstar Heroes probably has as much platforming as Splatterhouse does, which I do think of as belonging to the genre I was talking about, and plenty of them (including Shinobi and Rolling Thunder) also revolve around projectiles. So I don't know what to think. The main thing that separates games like Contra and Gunstar Heroes is that they're not so methodical and more like shmups in that bullets never stop flying, so they're kind of halfway between shmups and side-scrollers. And I really can't count Atomic Runner, which is even more like a shmup since it has auto-scrolling, and not count those. I definitely think they're closer to what I like than games like Mario and Sonic, which are much more about jumping than anything else. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 19:51:38 GMT -5
2D platformers are one of my favorite genres. It would be hard for me to narrow down into specifics because I like all different types.
3D platformers have just never worked for me for whatever reason. I've played some and I've beaten some but I've rarely really enjoyed my time with one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Xeogred on Apr 15, 2019 20:40:34 GMT -5
I'm a bit more with toei on some of this, I break up these styles and genres a lot more in my head when it comes to this stuff. But the NES certainly blurs the lines a bit since most of its library is run from point A to point B in some fashion. When I think "platformer" though, I think JUMP! And jumping on enemies to take them out. Generally more lighthearted too and they feel like fun cozy adventures. Throw in "action" though and it's a majorly different thing. I never ever think of Mega Man in the same vein as those, etc. Not to split hairs but it definitely makes it tricky for me to evaluate some things here. Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami have spoiled me when it comes to the NES. I like some good precision and polish. But a lot of those Natsume games, Sunsoft, Tecmo, and some other oddballs like Vice Project Doom were fantastic as well. The NES has both quantity and quality for sure. Honestly I would love to say I like the SNES's style the most of all though. Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, and the Donkey Kong Country games (1 especially for me), are just pure magic. I love these bigger sprawling adventures but they still never go overboard (well DKC2-3 do). I wish there was some stuff like this on the Genesis, though for years off and on I used to wonder if I liked Sonic even more than Mario. I replay the Sonic the Hedgehog games a lot, which would be 1-3+K and CD, I can't praise these games enough. I wish there were 10 more of them but I appreciate they're something I can blast through in one sitting, like Mega Man games. All that said, the 16bit era has the quality, but maybe not the quantity compared to the options on the NES. Again though, it's hard for me to think of stuff like Shinobi 3 here, even though that's pretty close to some NES stuff in design... see you got me confused! Regardless I'm sure the NES still wins by the numbers. I love the heck out of 3D platformers. I would play more of them, if there were more! At least Nintendo keeps them alive for the most part with your man Mario and all. For a newer series I got into later on, the Ratchet & Clank series is straight up incredible. The first game is rough but the second one, Going Commando, still might be my absolute favorite. It's mind boggling how that one perfected everything and had such an awesome balance between action and adventure. I also like the Sly games, but couldn't bring myself to finish 3. It was chalk full of complete-style changing mini-games and annoying parts, so much trial and error I just straight up quit. I think you were forced to play a lot more characters again too. It went overboard in DK64-like fashion and bit off more than it could chew. Jak & Daxter I think pretty much sucks, I absolutely hated the characters and it was sloppily designed in a lot of areas, I think nostalgia blinds people on this one. I could only stomach minutes of 2 and it being more of some "edgy" GTA thing with guns but NO staffing movement (unlike R&C), I just said forget it, Jak sucks the big one. I missed out on all three of these series' back on the PS2, so I hit up the PS3 HD collections. That's my non-nostalgia view on them. The first Sly freaking rocks and the second one is cool, R&C1 is oozing with charm but a little rough, yet after that it's just an unstoppable chain reaction of ~5-6 more amazing sequels and an awesome series. Mario 64 is the perfect template for me though. I do not care about realism at all in pure-platformers, my favorite Mario levels are always the one where you're just in some weird dimension with a bunch of giant floating blocks and legos. This is awesome platforming at its purest and what I love, maneuvering crazy obstacle courses. I prefer a good challenge too. The 3D games can age terribly though. I grew up loving the Gex games, Croc, etc, but those are some I'm afraid to go back and play again haha. Some things might be best left in the past... The Crash HD remaster trilogy blew me away though (and I only had nostalgia for 1) and I want to play the Spyro collection too, which looks amazing as well. With how well these were received and play, I think it's a testament that simple 3D platformers never fell out of style, publishers just abandoned it for a long time. I'm glad some still crop up though.
Something I really want to play more of someday, would be Doremi Fantasy on the SNES. I had it on one of my old Wii's years ago and liked what I played quite a bit. Still some Sunsoft and NES games I need to check out, along with Genesis stuff.
Ultimately I don't know how we're all breaking up these genres and whatever, but I'll just say I love good polished jumping in the vein of Sonic/Mario, but Mega Man and Metroid are absolute perfection on the action-platformer side of things for me. For as much as I love Castlevania, I always give Metroid the edge (easily) because Samus' moveset is so much more advanced and ... shooting things with lasers/missiles is the apex of 2D fun for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Apr 15, 2019 20:55:56 GMT -5
I picked up Doremi Fantasy before the shop shut down, just to have it "legit". It's a pretty pricey game, and that's about the only way I'll actually ever own it. Either that, or I become independently wealthy and can afford to blow stacks of cash on retro games. Ex: I still need to give those another go. Umihara Kawase has a little bit of Bionic Commando, but that physics engine is a lot more involved. I don't know what it is, but I start to check out when things feel too realistic on physics-based platformers. However, that game is goofy enough that I'll probably make a run at it regardless. I watched a fascinating speedrun of the game. You'd be surprised what an expert player can do! |
|
|
|
Post by Ex on Apr 15, 2019 21:30:03 GMT -5
So what are your favorites? Need something new to play in your favorite genre? Here's ten HRG-compliant platformers that I like, which I don't recall seeing you play through before (could be wrong): Well, I liked it. The platforming you do as the spider is pretty creative. Wii hidden gem btw.
 This game is awesome. If you don't believe me, ask Xeogred .  Simple DS Series Vol. 18: The Soukou Kihei Gun GroundDo you like Assault Suits Valken? This is pretty close for your DS. Excellent series entry, and easily the best on Game Boy.
The Adventure of Little Ralph
Fun and challenging 2D platformer for PS1. Hermie Hopperhead If you want to play something very lighthearted, and also 2D on PS1. Choukousoku GranDoll More PS1 2D goodness.
Korokoro Postnin
One more 2D PS1 platformer, this time with rotational effects galore. I've beaten all the Trine games released thus far. The first and second one are well worth your time. These are 3D games in a 2D platforming style.
Good stuff all. |
|
|
|
Post by Xeogred on Apr 15, 2019 21:43:27 GMT -5
Korokoro Postnin
Wonder if someone has a good list or article on 2D styled PSX games out there?
|
|
), I'm quite curious as to what generation everyone thinks has the "best" platformers. I mean, if you want to drill down to specific systems, that's cool, too. I just didn't think 8/16-bit quite captured the essence of the question, given that in many cases, bits are meaningless. (Looking at you, TG-16!)
