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Post by Sarge on Jan 9, 2022 20:36:58 GMT -5
I still need to actually try to finish Brave Fencer Musashi, or finally polish off this Threads of Fate run I've had going for forever.
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Post by anayo on Jan 10, 2022 7:08:11 GMT -5
Yeah. Square were a technical powerhouse around the mid 90's and on. They surely liked to show it too. To deny that FF7 is a technical marvel for its time would be crazy, but I can probably see how older FF fans might have thought they were focusing more on "flair" than "substance". Again, I can say this as someone that loves FF7, but it's a wacky game with flaws. I think I somehow slipped into the middle of the two older FF fanbases. It's easy to see how FF7 probably catered more towards younger people at the time (I had a friend bring the case to grade school just to show off the manual and stuff haha) and more often than not, I see older gamers who were into the first three in the US weren't too hot on FF7. I just devoured 16/32bit JRPG's all at once when I got into that stuff though, so I like them all. Yeah I guess what I was trying to say is that for 1997, the game looks like a million bucks. But I can't think of any reason why you couldn't make the core the gameplay work on the NES. Cloud and his pals just go from place to place, fight baddies in turn based combat, and stop at towns to restock with better weapons and armor. In fact I think there's a Chinese bootleg Famicom version of FFVII somewhere out there. No idea if they crammed every minutiae into that version, or if its severely abridged, but still. On the other hand, that just wouldn't work for most of the N64 games I grew up with. Virtually all of my childhood N64 titles needed 3D polygons to work on a fundamental level. Thanks for that tip. The most annoying thing about the battle screen so far is that it lets me attack my own team mates and use healing items on enemies. I've accidentally done each of those at least once so far. During one of them it pissed me off and I yelled, " Why the $#%! does it let me do that?!" Another time the camera aligned itself so all my fighters were overlapping with each other. I really needed to heal Cloud, but I couldn't tell if I was selecting him or not. I wasn't able to heal him in time and I lost the battle over it. You are correct about FF7's difficulty and I think that's why it was a way of growing on those who play it (even non-JRPG aficionados). For being so self-indulgently long it's VERY user friendly. As long as you keep putting one foot in front of the other you'll keep making progress. I've only had to consult an online guide once so far (to find the keystone at Dio's place). I'm not sure what you're referring to about Enemy Skills, though. That's probably a gameplay mechanic that eluded me. What are those and how do I use them?
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Post by Ex on Jan 10, 2022 8:39:24 GMT -5
For being so self-indulgently long I get the gist you've not completed many JRPGs (which is fine, we all have our favorite genres). FF7's completion time is about average for its platform. That is to say, the homogeneous completion time for a PS1 JRPG averages between 30-40 hours long. PS2 JRPGs average between 40-60. PS3 and beyond, the completion time averages 40+, with many PS3/PS4 JRPGs getting into the 60+ hour long range. If you're looking for the 20-30 hour range, that would be 8/16-bit JRPGs. I agree with toei that JRPGs on average only became longer and longer through the successive hardware generations.
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Post by toei on Jan 10, 2022 8:42:15 GMT -5
anayo Final Fantasy lets you do some clever things that involve targeting. Undead enemies can be hurt with healing items or spells, for example. There was a boss in FF3 that you needed to beat by casting Reflect on your party, then casting offensive spells on yourselves so they'd bounce off you and hit him (something like that, I don't remember exactly). You also had the option of dividing a spell's power to make it hit multiple enemies rather than one, etc. Also, turn-based RPG already functioned as 3D games even in 2D, so there was no reason for their core gameplay to change just because polygons were being used.
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Post by Ex on Jan 10, 2022 8:57:44 GMT -5
anayoI'd also like to add - for someone new to JRPGs, I wouldn't put FF7 out there as a great one to start with. FF7 is important historically, from a scholarly perspective of the medium it's worth playing (maybe not finishing). From a "well written scenarios, engaging game design, consistently entertaining" perspective, I don't think FF7 is a paragon of the genre.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 10, 2022 16:19:08 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of RPGs that could be done on older hardware. But a lot of the genre push definitely went towards increasing graphical fidelity. FFVII was where it really kicked in, but SquareSoft was absolutely chasing that target down on the SNES, especially with FFVI and Chrono Trigger. (And while it'd take a big hit, I believe Chrono Trigger could even be done in some form on NES. But so much of that game is about the audio-visual experience.)
Another game from the PSX era that could be done on prior hardware? Metal Gear Solid. In fact, almost all of its gameplay could be found in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake on MSX2, and also ported over into Metal Gear Solid: Ghost Babel on GBC. It's also why the game has aged so well, in my opinion.
Believe it or not, FFVII really isn't much (if any) longer than FFVI. There were definitely SNES RPGs pushing those lengths.
Still, if you want to set a high water mark for a JRPG, go play Chrono Trigger. Or FFVI. I suspect most here put those games at the top of their JRPG pantheon. (Respect to Phantasy Star IV and the Dragon Quest games, though.)
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Post by Xeogred on Jan 10, 2022 18:53:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you're referring to about Enemy Skills, though. That's probably a gameplay mechanic that eluded me. What are those and how do I use them? I think in FF7 the Materia is simply called Enemy-Skill. It's a yellow command one. It functions like Blue Mages in other FF games, by having that Materia equipped if that character gets hit by some specific abilities they can learn them permanently (they'll stay attached to the Materia which brings up a big list of what you learn). There's like 2-3 dozen skills you can get in FF7 and a lot of the games. It becomes some trial and error, RNG, etc trying to get the best skills. But yeah in FF7's case I never really went out of my way to learn certain abilities, but I would often have the Enemy-Skill equipped to someone just in case.
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Post by toei on Jan 11, 2022 0:18:04 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of RPGs that could be done on older hardware. But a lot of the genre push definitely went towards increasing graphical fidelity. FFVII was where it really kicked in, but SquareSoft was absolutely chasing that target down on the SNES, especially with FFVI and Chrono Trigger. (And while it'd take a big hit, I believe Chrono Trigger could even be done in some form on NES. But so much of that game is about the audio-visual experience.) Another game from the PSX era that could be done on prior hardware? Metal Gear Solid. In fact, almost all of its gameplay could be found in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake on MSX2, and also ported over into Metal Gear Solid: Ghost Babel on GBC. It's also why the game has aged so well, in my opinion. Believe it or not, FFVII really isn't much (if any) longer than FFVI. There were definitely SNES RPGs pushing those lengths. Still, if you want to set a high water mark for a JRPG, go play Chrono Trigger. Or FFVI. I suspect most here put those games at the top of their JRPG pantheon. (Respect to Phantasy Star IV and the Dragon Quest games, though.) In terms of technology, the genre push went towards script size, first and foremost. NES RPGs barely had stories and the characters almost never talked because there wasn't enough space on the ROM. Every time ROM space increased, RPGs progressed in that direction. Compare DQ to DQ IV, then early SNES RPGs to late SNES RPGs. The number one improvement was in the writing. With CD-ROM, that was no longer an issue, and in many cases, that made the writing worse, because the scenario writers no longer had as strong an incentive to be concise. Trying to chart the progress in turn-based RPGs as a genre by their battle system or gameplay loops is missing the point entirely. Turn-based RPGs are not like other games. Interacting with other characters, following the story and exploring the world are the core appeal. Thus as the genre progressed, we started seeing more NPCs and more banter between party members, more story, and larger worlds. The genre continually progressed in those directions at a very rapid pace from the mid-'80s to probably... I'd say the early '00s.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 11, 2022 1:20:09 GMT -5
That too, although I always thought Dragon Warrior III/IV were quite wordy, especially for NES games. But it probably even bested some 16-bit RPGs. But you're absolutely right, the additional space enabled not just a big jump in presentation, but in script sizes. I think that was a positive in some cases, and a negative in others, as you allude to. I definitely think freed of all constraints, some writers just went nuts and really needed an editor. I have to wonder if in some ways, localizers having to cut down the scripts in the 16-bit era actually helped in some cases.
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Post by toei on Jan 11, 2022 3:14:58 GMT -5
That too, although I always thought Dragon Warrior III/IV were quite wordy, especially for NES games. But it probably even bested some 16-bit RPGs. But you're absolutely right, the additional space enabled not just a big jump in presentation, but in script sizes. I think that was a positive in some cases, and a negative in others, as you allude to. I definitely think freed of all constraints, some writers just went nuts and really needed an editor. I have to wonder if in some ways, localizers having to cut down the scripts in the 16-bit era actually helped in some cases. I believe there was a deliberate choice made with Dragon Quest III and IV not to upgrade the graphics significantly in order to keep space for the writing. DQIV looks very dated compared to other late NES RPGs, still using those simplistic mid-'80s color schemes rather than what had become common by then, and still using those roofless homes in towns, etc. But in terms of structure and writing, it's essentially a 16-bit RPG, as we've discussed before. And that's using the largest cart size available at the time - I'm not sure, but it might even have been the first to get up to 4 "megs". It was twice as large as most first-generation Genesis games. I think that's a direct result of Dragon Quest's development being led by a professional writer rather than a game designer. I don't think localizers cutting down scripts was a positive. I've played plenty of fan-translated SNES RPGs where they didn't significantly cut the text and wordiness was never an issue. It wasn't really an issue until the GBA (mostly just Golden Sun), PS2, etc. I don't think the decrease in writing quality observed in some later RPGs is only the result of too much space, either. Things always run their course. Japanese RPGs are long past their prime.
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