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Post by toei on Mar 23, 2022 22:51:28 GMT -5
So... I don't think the original Strider is a good game, either. In the past I'd bounced off it and always thought it just felt off, but I wasn't ready to call it bad. I thought maybe I'd eventually "get" its gameplay, or the flow/playstyle it wants out of me, and it would click. After playing it for two games and making it to the third level (out of five, I hear), I am ready. Now, sure, movement is a lot faster and smoother than in Returns, and it doesn't have that ridiculous time limit problem. But everything about the level design, enemy placement and fighting is wrong. You're constantly running into damage. I don't think large sprites are the problem - there are tons of action-platformers on the Genesis with sprites the same size, and I like most of them much, much more than NES platformers. I think it just wasn't well-designed. A lot of the time it's hard to tell what you were supposed to do not to get hit, exactly. I have no idea how to not take damage from the first boss, for example - what works best is just to stick to her and attack a lot, and you'll probably take just one hit and win. Same for the midboss that comes before, minus the damage - just get close and mash the attack button, and he can't do anything. The second boss consists of a bunch of martial artists on a plane - you can't seem to do anything against them until you figure out you can jump over their heads, head into the pilot's cabin, and just attack them from there where they can't reach you. I can't tell whether I solved a puzzle or just found a cheap tactic that works. I wouldn't mind either if the levels worked, but they don't. It just never stops being weird and janky to play. I figure its popularity at the time must have been due at least in part to how spectacular it probably looked then. Big sprites, lots of showy events in stages (there's a snowy slope you run down at fast speed before jumping on another slope, like Sonic would do later, a part where the lights go on and off, etc.). In a way, it might be Capcom's Altered Beast - a then-technically-impressive "classic" that didn't age well for most people. Except I actually like Altered Beast somewhat, and I don't want to play any more Strider. Then again, Final Fight came out the same year, and I think it looks way more impressive, in addition to being good.
Also, I'd argue that Capcom in the late '80s wasn't quite the high-level company they would become shortly after. They had some good games, for sure, but they were more hit-or-miss. Especially with arcade action-platformers. From what little I played of it, Trojan was barely playable.
Since we're talking about Alisia Dragoon, I don't think the game's core system works, either. The whole semi-auto aiming thing. It has nice visuals, music, and stage design, but the gameplay is weak. I know I made it quite far, but I could never finish it. It just didn't feel right. Likewise, I could never get into that rare Saturn game that uses a somewhat similar system (something something Taromaru, I think) - I want to have actual control over my attacks in an action game, so when I die, it's my fault, and when I win it's thanks to me.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2022 22:56:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't much care for the original Strider. I do think it became a bit more popular with that Genesis port, which was technically very impressive, and it definitely has spectacle, but as you say, it just feels off to me. I wouldn't call it a bad game, but I also don't think it deserves such glowing recollections, either.
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Post by Xeogred on Mar 23, 2022 23:04:06 GMT -5
It's funny watching some video of it now and realizing it probably runs on a similar engine behind Ghosts 'n Goblins. Lot of similar looking sprite flickering, sounds, etc. And then it makes me realize, maybe Strider was like the sci-fi Ghosts 'n Goblins, with a bigger emphasis on its strange platforming and movement. Which is what makes me feel so iffy about it haha. If it was a more straightforward, "grounded" platformer it might look better to me...
toei : Huh, I thought I remembered you being a strong Alisia Dragoon defender. I think playing it tonight I was just like "Okay, this is like a free roaming shmup on foot, think I like it now" .... but I get what you're saying with its odd attack system.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2022 23:11:22 GMT -5
For a game that feels similar, but is much more fun to play, try Osman. Just... don't die at one particular spot, or you're in for bad times.
EDIT: Alright, sure, I'll finish Strider. I know it had to have been impressive at the time (the slopes and clinging to surfaces were probably quite a technical achievement, actually), but it also feels pretty janky. I know folks hate on the NES game (which also is super janky), but I'll take it every time over this one. What's here is... I'll say it's decent. Probably a 6/10.
Okay, the arcade version of Kid Niki can go die in a fire. Most of the game is fine, but the last boss has a phase that is pure, complete, unadulterated bullcrap. It's pure RNG whether you can survive. I was slipping through maybe 1/25 times. And that's not it! I was one hit away from winning, and didn't get it, and only got to the end two more times. Do not recommend for your sanity. If I happen to see a save state out there, I might pick it up just to finish it and put it on the list. I'm sure if I battered at it more, I could win, but at this point, I'm just done.
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Post by toei on Mar 24, 2022 18:13:22 GMT -5
I played Shubibinman 3 up to the final level and accidentally reset the game. The PC Engine has this dumb feature where pressing Run+Select resets it - it's a bit too easy to do by mistake. Anyway, the game feels like such a trifle that I don't think I'll bother finishing it. It's weird how it's set up, it's like one long level with barely any break (except on the couple occasions where an anime cutscenes plays, as this is a PCE-CD game), and you're always fighting some inconsequential boss or mini-boss. There's a lot going on visually - it's almost like it's trying to be those showoff Konami Genesis games like Rocket Knight Adventures and Castlevania Bloodlines with all the setpieces - but you're mostly just walking in a straight line slashing at things, with no challenge whatsoever and no meat to the action. It feels like your sword is just going through enemies without touching them. Seriously, watch this final boss fight:
Talk about simplistic.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 24, 2022 20:59:58 GMT -5
That Start+Select thing is obnoxious.
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Post by toei on Mar 24, 2022 21:08:02 GMT -5
I decided to go back and beat it after all. For some reason, Ootake started crashing like crazy, which had never happened with it in the years I've been using it. I went in the settings and had it run some kind of test where it determines the right V-Sync option and that fixed it. The game did grow on me a little. I figured out that you can charge a projectile attack by holding the button for a second or two. Normally you'd be able to see that something is charging; you might even have a gauge. In this game, there is no visual or audio cue whatsoever, which is why I didn't know you could. It makes that fight against those masks way, way more fair. Shubibinman screams out "Shubibin!" when he uses it, so I guess it's literally his main power. It's still an incredibly easy game, and combat could be better, but it's not bad, and it does have a certain charm. I kind of like the basic gameplay during levels - it's all the special segments that need the most work. The bosses are a joke, but at least they're a quick one. The visuals are nice and colorful, the music is good (though not very memorable), the anime scenes are cool. I even replayed it with the female character afterward - I don't think it makes any difference, but I like her sprite. There's even a simultaneous 2-player mode, which is rare in this genre, though if one game doesn't need to be any easier, it's this one. I'd give it a 6 in the end. It's okay.
I also messed with the first Shubibinman for a while. It's pretty different - you pick levels from a map with multiple routes. They're very short, each with a boss, some enemies, and some platforming segments, and you use the money enemies drop to buy upgrades and stuff between levels. It has a certain charm, too, but unfortunately it doesn't control well at all. I do think the sword felt better to use in that first game, ironically - there's a knockback effect when you hit enemies, for one thing.
IIRC, the second game, also known as Shockman, is more of a Mega Man clone, while the final game (Shubibinman Zero on the SNES) has you using boxing gloves (I think the girl still has a sword, or it could be a stick) and has a beat-'em-up feel to its combat, so 1 and 3 are the best fit for this theme.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 24, 2022 22:05:36 GMT -5
I went back to Kid Niki and finished it using save states. The early stuff was quite easy overall (comparatively, anyway), and that last segment is still super lame. I'd give the game itself like a 5.5 or 6, but I dock it for that one horrible boss segment, so in the end it's more a 4.5-5.0 range. Talk about not finishing well. I've beaten the NES version, and I'm pretty sure it's a bit more forgiving, and I remember it feeling a bit better to control, too.
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Post by Ex on Mar 25, 2022 13:08:51 GMT -5
I understand why Strider was a big deal back in 1989, in the arcade scene it was ambitious from a level design and graphical standpoint (detailed backgrounds and large sprites). The sloping platforms and flip jumps, big sprites and far reaching slice attacks, were impressive for its time. On a personal level I never cared for the game even in the arcades, recented the Genesis version once and didn't finish it. I did beat the NES version of Strider around the time it initially released, and I agree the NES version is better than the original insofar as game design's concerned. But even the NES version is programmatically questionable with strange glitches and erratic hit detection. The only Strider game that I've truly loved was Strider 2 on PS1. It's well worth playing.
Shadow of the Ninja is great stuff, especially co-op. It's a solid example of why the NES is king of platformers. I've beaten it single player and multiplayer.
>Alisia Dragoon >Battle Mania Daiginjou >Master of Darkness
I've beaten all of those before. Alisia Dragoon visually looks nice, but from a game design perspective it's kinda trash. You're constantly attacked from all sides and you fight back with an unreliable spasm of energy bolts. I enjoyed looking at the game but not playing it. Battle Mania is a solid shmup, I say that for both of the entries. Master of Darkness is a poor man's Castlevania but it's worth a play as an example of a decent action-platformer on SMS. (I recommend the SMS version over the GG version.)
>Capcom in the late '80s wasn't quite the high-level company they would >become shortly after. They had some good games, for sure, but they were >more hit-or-miss.
I agree Capcom's arcade stuff in the '80s was hit or miss. On the NES side though, Capcom had some killer games. For my tastes Capcom was better at game design on the NES, but obviously had stronger graphics for arcade at the time. It was like they'd come up with ideas in the arcade but refine them for console release.
>Osman. Just... don't die at one particular spot, or you're in for bad times.
I never finished the game because of THAT spot. I know exactly what you are talking about, infinited credits won't even help there. For what it's worth though I think Osman is funner than Strider.
Shubibinman 3 looks fun to me, might check that one out later.
I've not played much Kid Niki, but its sequels Kaiketsu Yanchamaru 2: Karakuri Land and Kaiketsu Yanchamaru 3 may be better. The third game certainly LOOKS nice for a Famicom release. There's also a Game Boy gaiden thing named Ganso!! Yanchamaru, it's not a port but a unique entry.
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Post by toei on Mar 25, 2022 15:29:34 GMT -5
Yanchamaru 3 might as well be a completely different series. It seemed decent for a NES platformer, but not enough to keep me playing.
I second Battle Mania being good. I was disappointed how easy the second game was. It was over before I knew it. It starts out strong with a great first level, but the rest of the game doesn't live up to it. It's still decent, but it had the potential to be a classic.
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