|
|
Post by toei on Aug 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT -5
The difference between a hardcore/difficult game we like and bullshit design is mostly whether we accept its conventions (or even understand/perceive them - patterns you don't pick up on will look like nonsense). Many people (all y'all) like NES action platformers because they have no issue putting up with their difficult elements; to me, they've always felt like pure bullshit I just can't get behind rather than "fair" or a legitimate challenge. But it's strange for me to hear of Landstalker as a "sadistic" game from someone who'd praise Batman NES or Ninja Gaiden as I really don't feel it is. I'm not arguing I'm right about the games here; I'm saying that something about who we are, how our minds work, and maybe the games we've been trained on allows us to adhere to certain spicier conventions but not others, and that has everything to do with how we receive those games.
|
|
|
|
Post by Xeogred on Aug 17, 2024 22:28:03 GMT -5
Yeah it's all subjective whatever "hardcore" is. We've all here conquered some crazy games by this point. Brain Lord did tick me off a bit but in retrospect I liked it a lot. Maybe I'll feel that way about Beyond Oasis a few months/years down the road. It's funny I hated platforming in both of these games, when I can ask, have you guys played Crash 1-4? Those games are absolutely bonkers hard actually but I loved them. You know exactly what you're getting into though with that or Mario games. So I think it's just annoyed whiplash when I'm playing an ARPG like Beyond Oasis and suddenly in a lost Mario level for a room in some dungeon, lol. I think you guys have more patience than me on some of this stuff. But I maybe thrive more than others on some of the quick reflexes fast paced stuff, which is where a lot of NES platformers fit the bill, or for modern stuff character action games and such. People still to this day say Ninja Gaiden Xbox or DMC3 are some of the hardest games they ever played and I just love that stuff. Pure raw skill. I'm honed in that, but my INT stats might be lower than others in some older archaic games that need me to slow down some. lol
|
|
|
|
Post by Ex on Aug 17, 2024 22:40:25 GMT -5
toei IIRC you thought The Immortal on Genesis was full of unfair bullshit and you hated it, whereas I love that game. A point of reference because The Immortal is an isometric dungeon crawler on Genesis, similar to how Landstalker is, although they play very differently. So my point is, I agree with you it's a matter of perception and individual subjective tolerance. There's a laundry list of things I did not like about Landstalker, from simple stuff like its annoying jumping sound effect you have to hear a million times, to how many hits a simple slime takes to kill, to tedious "puzzles" that are just gauntlets of annoying platforming over spikes to hit switches, backtracking galore, limited and repetitive OST... it's just not a game for me. But I'm not saying " Landstalker is shit" because I get a lot of people loved it. I am keen to see what Xeogred 's take will be, once he has a few hours into it. BTW there is a NES game that reminds me of Landstalker somewhat: Although Solstice predates Landstalker by two years. but my INT stats might be lower than others in some older archaic games that need me to slow down some I can't remember if you played Light Crusader yet on Genesis. That one has some really clever and unusual puzzles. But it is chock full of SOLVE THE RIDDLE! puzzles. The most un-Treasure game that Treasure's made. I enjoyed it very much: gamefaqs.gamespot.com/genesis/586289-light-crusader/reviews/166879
|
|
|
|
Post by toei on Aug 17, 2024 22:49:19 GMT -5
Solstice and its sequel Equinox are lacking the RPG side completely, which makes them less interesting to me. They're just action-puzzle games, like Steal Princess on the DS. I found them cool at first but I can't stick with them. Something about the RPG side motivates me for the action-puzzles in Landstalker. I also just like the dungeon design better. I gave The Immortal another shot maybe last year and while I didn't fully hate it, it just didn't seem all that fun to me and I dropped it early. It's more so cryptic design in that one - lots of stuff that might seem less unintuitive if I had more experience with old Western computer games. Weird combat too, but interestingly, you might argue that it's like a more primitive take on Dark Savior's combat, which is one of Landstalker's spiritual sequels.
Of course I played Light Crusader, it's a Genesis RPG. I like it too. When I first rented that game as a kid, it felt like I had found a console Diablo at first, since it was one town, one dungeon. I also wouldn't have known how to explain it yet, but it's more Western-influenced, so it doesn't feel like other Genesis ARPGs. Of course LC is different, more puzzles, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Aug 17, 2024 22:51:54 GMT -5
Not going to type much on a tablet, but good discussion, and I have thoughts. I feel there's design elements in many older games that can be unfair, it's just a matter of the type and individual tolerances. Many NES games can be unfair, but often there's a sort of logic to them that once you grok it, transfers to other games. Plus, that era has more games that tend to be memorization-heavy. They're unfair in ways that some shmups tend to be unfair, so figuring out routing, strategies, and having more patience than our adult selves often lack helps. I'd consider most of Landstalker's flaws of the "man, I have to do this again?" type - missing a jump that sends you plummeting, or a puzzle you need to reset many times because the timing is astoundingly tight. That being said, I only think there's one truly egregious execution puzzle, and toei mentioned it. I think I gave it an 8.5 - despite some flaws it has a ton of charm. |
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Sept 7, 2024 13:48:34 GMT -5
I beat Demon's Crest. Again. Still an unbelievably great game. 10/10. With the caveat that 10/10 doesn't mean "perfect" - I wish you didn't have to grind for money for the true boss every time, some of the form-swapping can get old, and both the final boss and the FINAL final boss are insanely frustrating and/or difficult. (I got the true end boss on the third try, and it helped that I remembered I could still plink him here and there during his skeleton phase - every hit counts in this battle of attrition!)
On the positive side of the ledger is... darn near everything. Unique items and controls, and some of the best sprite art you'll ever see on any system, coupled with a soundtrack that perfectly matches the world. There's not much you could improve on that front, unless you maybe had Tengo Project do one of their patented retouches and slightly increase the pixel resolution and a tad more detail here and there that would have required a bigger cart on SNES.
If Capcom were to ever bring this back, I don't know if they'd have the folks to pull it off, at least in this style. It's that good.
|
|
|
|
Post by Xeogred on Sept 7, 2024 13:57:43 GMT -5
I might have the patience or interest in it nowadays, it would be like a whopping 4th attempt to beat it though. The slow towns and grinding for money always brings the pacing down for me and the form swapping. But I can see how people like it a lot.
|
|
|
|
Post by paulofthewest on Sept 7, 2024 19:58:54 GMT -5
I beat Demon's Crest. Again. Still an unbelievably great game. 10/10. With the caveat that 10/10 doesn't mean "perfect" - I wish you didn't have to grind for money for the true boss every time, some of the form-swapping can get old, and both the final boss and the FINAL final boss are insanely frustrating and/or difficult. (I got the true end boss on the third try, and it helped that I remembered I could still plink him here and there during his skeleton phase - every hit counts in this battle of attrition!) On the positive side of the ledger is... darn near everything. Unique items and controls, and some of the best sprite art you'll ever see on any system, coupled with a soundtrack that perfectly matches the world. There's not much you could improve on that front, unless you maybe had Tengo Project do one of their patented retouches and slightly increase the pixel resolution and a tad more detail here and there that would have required a bigger cart on SNES. If Capcom were to ever bring this back, I don't know if they'd have the folks to pull it off, at least in this style. It's that good. Amen to that. As for the money thing. I have a note on my game to put in a code after the first level run though. It is basically get all the stuff in the first level + life boost from doing that stupid money game. After that the game is freaking amazing. |
|
|
|
Post by Xeogred on Sept 7, 2024 20:38:26 GMT -5
Maybe I should consider that... busting out the Cheat Codes.  |
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Sept 7, 2024 20:48:13 GMT -5
Hoooooo boy, that would have been nice. I did the level 3 game last night, and it took me probably fifteen minutes or so to finally get it. I've gotten pretty good at the headbutt games, so I'm usually decently close on several attempts, but I generally need a lucky pattern to finally get over the edge.
|
|
