|
Post by Ex on Oct 8, 2018 10:26:56 GMT -5
This is a thread to discuss NEC's various disc based consoles:
(If I'm forgetting one let me know.) I've noticed a fair amount of us around here have experience with these platforms. What's your experience with any/all of these systems? What's your opinion of their significance in gaming history? What are your favorite games? Got any hidden gems you want to suggest?
- I'll be back later with my own response.
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Oct 8, 2018 13:01:49 GMT -5
After years of salivating over one, I finally picked up a PC Engine Duo. I've not regretted the purchase, but I have to admit that it doesn't hold the same sort of cachet that the SNES and Genesis do for me. It absolutely comes down to the genres on display, and a lack of quality developers for the games we got here in the States. In particular, the platformer genre ended up very weak. If you're a shmup fan, there's a lot to like. If you can read Japanese and like RPGs, there's a ton to like. I can fulfill the latter, but not the former, so all I can do is look and wonder at the games I may never be able to truly play.
The Super CD side feels a good deal stronger than the HuCard side. I don't know when the shift occurred in Japan, but I'm sure the temptation to develop with that much CD space at a lower price point was too much to resist, and it helps that in Japan, the system was quite successful. They were able to avoid the pitfalls that befell the Sega CD here, and we also know that Sega was bringing up the rear in Japan anyway.
Power-wise, the system was actually quite capable. 8-bit or no, there were areas where it could almost go toe-to-toe with the Genesis. My understanding is that some of the sprite capabilities were also beyond what the Genesis could do, and I know the color capabilities were more advanced. The SNES was definitely the turtle here, but held massive advantages on the PPU side that helped alleviate those concerns when developers leveraged it properly.
It really feels like the system was badly mismanaged here in the States. I think this was a case where, much like Sega really screwed up with the Saturn, NEC/Hudson really didn't know what to do over here. At some point, I felt like their marketing was better, but I think it was very much a case of too little, too late by that point.
|
|
|
Post by bonesnapdeez on Oct 8, 2018 15:30:11 GMT -5
Yeah, while the Sega CD feels like a dated "fad" peripheral, the TurboGrafx CD games effectively "replaced" HuCards after awhile. The CD-based games are just exponentially better overall.
No secret I love the NEC stuff, primarily due to the JPRG library. I'm pretty much done buying domestic releases though, due to financial restraints.
To quote Ex, "I'll add more later."
|
|
|
Post by anayo on Oct 8, 2018 17:47:30 GMT -5
I absolutely adore Castlevania: Rondo of Blood and Lords of Thunder (my #1 shmup of all time so far). Regrettably I can't of think of many other reasons I would personally want a CD drive for my TG16. It's also bloody expensive and Mednafen for Wii serves my needs for PCE CD emulation on a CRT for a fraction of the price. Part of what got me into retro gaming in the first place was the frugality of it, but when certain things skyrocket into collectors' items they lose their sparkle for me.
|
|
|
Post by bonesnapdeez on Oct 10, 2018 8:18:56 GMT -5
So, I vaguely remember the TurboGrafx-16 back in the day. I had no interest in it. The system and games were obscure, boasted some terrible artwork, and didn't appear to be any better than what was on the mainstream SNES and Genesis.
When I got "into retro gaming" in my late 20s I decided to seek out all the "essential" consoles. To save money on hardware, I chose to get a Japanese PC Engine Duo. This allows one to play Japanese HuCards and CD-ROM games from all regions.
(For those who are unaware, card games are region-locked [barring adapters/mods] but the CDs are not.)
Funny thing is, a few months later I found an American TG-16 in a comic book store and got that too. For a few years I kept both a TG-16 and PCE Duo hooked up to my TV. One for North American "TurboChips" and the other for Japanese HuCards and all CD-ROM games. These days I use a RetroFreak for cards and Mednafen for discs. Yay emulation. Oh, the RetroFreak actually plays SuperGrafx games as well. I bought the cheapest one I could find (Battle Ace) just for yucks. It kinda sucks.
The PC-FX I obtained later on. I rarely participate in eBay auctions, but I was tipped off to a PC-FX with a low starter bid, I placed a similarly low bid, walked away and ended up winning as apparently no one gives a crap about this thing. Games are scarce (I only own two) but I like what I've seen and the hardware + controllers are pretty cool.
Back to the PCE stuff though... Best specific thing about this system is the action-RPGs. My favorites include the Neutopia duo, the Exile duo, the Ys games, Xak games, Cadash, the Dungeon Explorer duo, Popful Mail, Brandish, and the Legend of Xanadu games. Of course there are plenty of great turn-based RPGs, shmups, and action games. Bloody Wolf owns!!! Worst thing about the system is the financial investment, especially the price of North American games. I've used the Virtual Console to purchase a smattering of things I couldn't afford otherwise.
The PCE has a great controller; it's essentially an NES controller but arguably more comfortable, with built-in turbo functions. The hardware is an absolute mess though -- there are different system models, systems cards, peripherals, and so on. Can't imagine how confusing this would have been back in the day. To give y'all some idea... the TG-16 model I own is a pure "vanilla" model. This means that it connects via RF only, and has one controller port (an adapter is required for additional ones). Lengthy TurboChip games that have a save function can't utilize said function, as I lack the "TurboBooster" or a CD attachment (which has built-in memory). Thankfully, these games also offer a password option. It's so strange!
As far as "console wars" go, the SNES just murders this thing. It isn't even close. If I consider both domestic and foreign games, the PCE+CD is probably pretty close to even with a Genesis+CD. The PCE CD library is waaaay more impressive than that of the Sega CD. On the flipside, a vanilla Genesis is superior to a vanilla PCE, with the Genesis offering up a much larger array of quality cart-based games. 16-bit is my favorite era in general, and I guess I'd argue that all three main Japanese systems are complementary in some way, with the entire trio worth exploring thoroughly.
|
|
|
Post by Ex on Oct 10, 2018 9:14:22 GMT -5
As a kid in the late '80s, early '90s, I was vaguely aware of the TurboGrafx-16 and TurboGrafx-CD. I saw ads for that stuff and its games in magazines, as well as commercials on TV. None of my friends had one of these things, and I had zero access to playing these platforms for years. Didn't matter to me much, as I was content playing SEGA and Nintendo hardware.
However when I was thirteen, while visiting family in New York, I ended up playing a TG16. My uncle, who was four years older than me, was quite the video gamer. He happened to own a TG16 and a bunch of games for it. So I finally got to play a TG16. I remember being impressed with Bonk's Adventure and Dead Moon. That experience was back in 1992. Since then, I've never run into a TG16, or any NEC console for that matter, in real life again. This stuff is super rare in the west.
Eventually I got into TG16/PCE/TGCD/PCECD emulation via Magic Engine in the early '00s. I had some fun times with a few of the action games; some platformers and especially the shmups. But ultimately I wasn't that impressed. I have no doubt there's quality RPGs on the CD side, but considering the most interesting RPG stuff remains Japanese only, it doesn't much matter for my experience. I would still strongly recommend NEC platforms to shmup lovers though, as the platforms cater very well to that genre. There are a handful of decent platformers as well, but nothing like what the SNES/Genesis offers.
The PC-FX I only learned about in the early '00s. There looks to be a lot of interesting visual novel/adventure games and RPGs on PC-FX. But as a non-Japanese reading/speaking westerner, it's all gated off by the impenetrable language barrier. Sadly due to its obscurity and lack of availability, I doubt we'll ever see much in the way of English fan translations for PC-FX's more text heavy games.
NEC could have done a lot better in the west insofar as gaining traction as a brand. Unfortunately they did not handle the western market well when it came to promotion and distribution. SEGA and Nintendo out maneuvered NEC easily, and with stronger more diverse libraries to boot. That said, there are some gems on NEC's various platforms, and their legacy is certainly not without merit.
|
|
|
Post by toei on Oct 10, 2018 21:43:07 GMT -5
Alright, people, relatively long post about the PCE & PCE-CD's respective places in the market ahead, as this is something I've been thinking about and looking into for a while. The Super CD side feels a good deal stronger than the HuCard side. I don't know when the shift occurred in Japan... 1991 and 1992. It's funny because the PC Engine CD was released back at the end of '88, just a year after the basic console, but HuCards remained the platform of choice for years. The database at mobygames is not necessarily exhaustive, but it's still a pretty good reference, and you can look at game releases for specific systems by year: in 1990, the PC Engine hit a peak with 90 games released, while the PCE CD only got 38. Then in '91, HuCards drop to 58, and CDs rise to 50; finally, in '92, you get 97 CD games for 33 HuCards, almost an exact reversal of the support two years before. The last HuCards come out in '93, while the PCE-CD's last decent year is '95, and support finally dies around '96 / '97. In other words, it's plain to see that the PC Engine chiefly competed against the NES, and it was replaced by the PC Engine Duo to try and compete with the SNES (the Supergrafx went nowhere fast, and should probably be compared to something like the 32X in terms of impact, except they killed it much more quickly). So even though it started as an add-on, it eventually became NEC's main console in terms of software support, unlike the SEGA-CD which always remained an add-on / afterthought, subordinate to the Genesis. Looking at third-party support is also revealing. The original PC Engine received steady support from Namco, but they never jumped on the CD bandwagon at all. Instead, they arguably switched support towards the Genesis, which was doing great in the West, while continuing to support the SNES, which dominated in Japan. On a smaller scale, Data East similarly supported the PCE from '89 to '91 before moving on to the SNES (while maintaining some Genesis output). Even Hudson Soft, which helped design the PC Engine and were involved in a large proportion of its software as a sort-of first party, began to support the SNES more and more, even moving the PC Engine's mascot to Nintendo's systems entirely in 1994! Meanwhile, other big 3rd parties like Konami and Capcom only ever released a half-handful of games for NEC's consoles, and Taito was relatively faithful throughout the lifespan of both systems. A lot of Technos games ended up being ported to PC Engine CD through Naxat Soft (most of them actually converted by KID). Apart from that, most of the PCE-CD games were made by smaller companies that came from the world of Japanese computers - your Falcoms, Micro Cabins and Fill-In Cafés. Telenet, too, came from that world, though it switched gear almost entirely to the PC Engine CD, then gradually added support for the Genesis, SNES and SEGA-CD. The strong genres on PCE-CD - RPGs, Shmups, adventure games & dating sims - were the same as on PC. This leads me to suspect that the PC Engine was much more popular than the PC Engine CD, and that the PCE-CD was probably a niche console (yes, RPGs were huge, but the only exclusive PCE-CD RPG series that seemed to have had notable commercial impact is Tengai Makyou, which went on to continue on other systems). EDIT-After a bit more research, a 1996 Famitsu article and these hardware shipping figures have the PC Engine shipping about 6 million units in Japan by 1995 versus 1.92 million for the Duo and CD-ROM add-on put together by '96. Meanwhile, the Mega Drive is at 3.58 million in Japan, which makes the PCE CD a niche, 3rd-place system, outsold by the SNES almost 10-to-1. This doesn't necessarily make it a failure, depending on much it cost NEC to produce and market. This might help explain why NEC was so unambitious when it came to the PC-FX, positioning it as niche, dating sim / anime-licensed system almost from the beginning; the PCE CD / Duo was already a niche system, and they hadn't been a serious contender since about 1992.
|
|
|
Post by Sarge on Oct 11, 2018 10:50:07 GMT -5
Very interesting. I'd always thought that the system was more successful on the CD side, but as you say, raw numbers would indicate that it was fairly niche. Still, almost two million compared to the entire Mega Drive coming in at 3.58, as an add-on, is pretty impressive. I guess seeing all those RPGs makes me think it was more successful than it was. And it makes sense that, given the distribution medium, niche publishers may have made a good amount of money despite not being the top.
Guess this just goes to show that the SNES obliterated everything. Which, of course, explains why there are so many RPGs on top of everything else.
|
|
|
Post by Ex on Oct 11, 2018 14:12:07 GMT -5
Gotta hand it to you toei, that was a seriously well researched high quality post. It really seems like NEC just had no idea how to handle their hardware overall.
|
|
|
Post by toei on Oct 11, 2018 16:20:47 GMT -5
Very interesting. I'd always thought that the system was more successful on the CD side, but as you say, raw numbers would indicate that it was fairly niche. Still, almost two million compared to the entire Mega Drive coming in at 3.58, as an add-on, is pretty impressive. I guess seeing all those RPGs makes me think it was more successful than it was. And it makes sense that, given the distribution medium, niche publishers may have made a good amount of money despite not being the top. Guess this just goes to show that the SNES obliterated everything. Which, of course, explains why there are so many RPGs on top of everything else.This an oversimplification, sure, but... NES=Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, a ton of RPGs=over 19 million sold in Japan, complete market domination SNES=Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, every other big RPG series=over 17 million sold in Japan*, similar market hold N64=Basically no RPGs=5.64 million sold in Japan, 3rd place behind the PSX and Saturn Meanwhile, the PSX had DQ and FF and took Nintendo's place. *The NES was around longer, which explains the slightly higher sales **The N64 was huge in the US, maybe Canada, but basically nowhere else
|
|