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Post by EasyHard on Jun 25, 2021 20:29:59 GMT -5
Played first 3 maps of Arrival on UV+Pistol Start, minimal saving. It's very good and I'm loving it more than Syringe. It really might be a new wad near the top of my favorites. Map 1 was previously released as a single map of Pavera's that I was already super familiar with and fond of. All the maps throw a lot of enemies at you, including archviles supported by small armies, but they are balanced very well. If you compare Map 3 to average community wads I think it is almost impossible not to notice how much more deliberate and creative the use of monsters and environment setups is.
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Post by Xeogred on Jun 25, 2021 20:58:54 GMT -5
I think maps 3, 4, 6, and 8 are my favorites. I think if you like it that much already, you're in good hands. Like I mentioned previously some backtracking/key navigation gets turned around a little at times, but yeah Pavera is freaking good. Map 9 is the only one where I got stumped on the red key for a long time and started to lose a little patience with. Map 8 feels like the real apex anyways. The composer put the tunes up on Bandcamp too: ad-79.bandcamp.com/album/arrival-ostFavorite tracks would be 2, 6, 7, 10, 11, and 12. Anyways, you might laugh, but I did maps 15-19 of Eviternity. Bumped it down to HMP, not doing PS, and just playing it to catch up on podcasts. This map took decino an hour long, same with me even on my settings. Since you can't see it here, I'll just say on HMP the enemy count was nearly 900. This map should have been its own episode, ugh... www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXougwr33VsI hit 200 hours on Steam and so I just also want to put this megawad behind me. But yeah I can confidently say, probably avoiding Dragonfly projects after this. Not a fan. Never have I seen so much enemy placement in carved out sections that are unreachable. It's fine when Plutonia has its little chaingunner towers or windows, but it's absolutely ridiculous in Eviternity. Holes in walls, ceilings, and the floor even around corners or stairs with a few Imps... just because? So you'll take chip damage in non combat areas? What a headache. You should load up this megawad and jump to map 19. I think it's your ultimate nightmare. lol
StormCatcher.77 actually did map 19, but yeah most of this megawad is Dragonfly.
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Post by EasyHard on Jun 25, 2021 21:24:15 GMT -5
I'm going to pass on playing map 19, haha. Are you sure you want to "put this megawad behind you" by finishing it? I can completely understand if the social recommendations out there for Eviternity gives you some kind of alternative enjoyment that makes it worth experiencing, but using it to catch up on podcasts seems like a sign that you aren't actually enjoying it very much. If playing it is an automatic habit you deserve better use of your time. You can always do some floor exercise routines or extra walking to consume those podcasts if that's the part you enjoy more out of the equation.
While I don't find myself clamoring for Dragonfly maps either, I do remember one single map of his that I recall being enjoyable: "Order Of The Odonata". My notes are just "fun castle level by Dragonfly. level is a graphical looker that uses advanced gzdoom features".
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Post by Xeogred on Jun 25, 2021 21:35:44 GMT -5
You can always do some floor exercise routines or extra walking to consume those podcasts if that's the part you enjoy more out of the equation. well I did do just that earlier in the day with some cardio.
Yeah I don't know. I often don't like leaving things unfinished and I guess even though I'm completely convinced I don't care for this megwad, it's still kind of a "What's the deal with this popularity? Does it click at some point?" ... yet I'm 19 maps in. And now it's like, I'm THIS far in, can't turn back...
At least there's a new dramatic theme/episode change per 5 maps. 21-25 is a cool looking Hell theme. But then 26-30 looks like some goofy Heavenly stuff. 16-20 were techbases but even with my bias for that aesthetic, I didn't care for this batch.
Extra interesting how the music isn't doing much for me either, even though I think I like most of Jimmy's material on a bunch of wads. Guess he even did the midi version of Sigil. So maybe he was directed for a particular style in Eviternity that doesn't do much for me.
Truth be told maybe I'm in a bit of a gaming lull, even though most of this DOOM run has been awesome. I should probably pick something else up.
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Post by Xeogred on Jun 26, 2021 10:13:54 GMT -5
MAP20 of Eviternity was pretty good. But yeah, that concludes the "4th episode", so I'm going to eject for now. Even though this 5th episode looks like a cool Hell theme. So this might be a wrap on the 2021 DOOM summer binge. - Doom: Lunar Catastrophe (PC)[UV,~8h] - Doom 2: Switcheroom II (PC)[UV,~6h] - Doom: Phobos Mission Control (PC)[UV, Single, Romero] - Doom 2: Doom Zero (PC)[UV,5h30m] - Doom 2: Plutonia AD (PC)[PS/UV,48m] - Doom 2: Plutonia* (PC)[PS/UV] - Doom: Tech Gone Bad (PC)[UV, Single, Romero] - Doom 2* (PC)[PS/UV] - Doom* (PC)[PS/UV]
- Doom 2: Scythe (PC)[PS/UV] - Doom 2: Doom 2 The Way id Did* (PC)[PS/UV] - Doom 2: Syringe (PC)[PS/UV] - Doom: Fava Beans (PC)[PS/UV] - Doom 2: Arrival (PC) [PS/UV] - Doom 2: Eviternity (PC)[Incomplete, 20/30 done]
Had a blast replaying Plutonia and Doom 2 via pistol start. A new way for me to play. Watching YT videos of people playing other wads without doing pistol start almost looks like cheating now.
D2TWID has leveled up in my rankings after this replay. Discovered some specific mappers I really enjoy.
Honorable mention would be Lunar Catastrophe, something I think I'll check out again someday. Plutonia AD was cool too. Looking forward to playing more AD_79 maps.
Outside of the great replays, Syringe, Arrival, and perhaps even Fava Beans would be some of my major highlights.
Doom Zero was lower tier, but did impress me with some of its tricks in level design with triggers, elevators, etc. Some intricate design that I haven't seen before here and there. Low difficulty and maybe not very memorable in the long run though.
Switcheroom II, is an idea better on paper. To be fair I don't envy the mappers having to "remix" old maps. The result is mostly a big mess.
Eviternity, is a new brand of level design that doesn't seem to work for me. More power to people that love this style, but all I can say is that less is more, often for me. For things I just played, I think Pavera nails the nice balance of bigger maps without overstaying their welcome for me. So I might have developed a preference for medium sized maps. I'm a fan of "adventure" in some map styles, but yeah. Nothing in Eviternity really did it for me.
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Post by EasyHard on Jun 26, 2021 12:56:57 GMT -5
That's a good selection of wads, and way higher hit-to-miss ratio than the wads I've played during this 3 month binge.
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Post by EasyHard on Jun 26, 2021 21:15:45 GMT -5
Xeogred More progress in Arrival, up to Map 6 ("The Ledge") which is another single map release by Pavera that he published before this wad. A few years back, when I noticed Pavera's D2TWID maps were very polished, I explored his doomwiki page and this is what I played first. I loved mastering this map at the time... I remember having to die and restart a ton. This experience really cemented Pavera as an awesome mapper to me, which eventually led to putting "Arrival" on my radar this year. So while I continue to finish the remaining maps, I can already say then that "Arrival" is at the top my favorites list along with Plutonia AD and D2TWID. Speaking of which, I've seen you pop up on the doomworld forums. You should draft your own favorites list and submit it to this thread: www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/109654-%E2%AC%86%EF%B8%8F-doomworld-community-top-wads-of-all-time-resurrected/Map 5 (The Spectre's Manse) was very fun, although I noticed the pace was much more methodical. This map has many examples of using enemies to provide area denial through windows or ledges, and not just placing those enemies on shelves as filler content. There is an early room with the SSG where you have two barons overlooking a lower floor with some curved staircases against the walls. It eventually triggers more enemies, and there are little murder holes all over to manage. Fun, but I also ended up handling it pretty patiently and methodically. (It also might be a very weak reference to Romero's E4M2?) Map 4 (Free Press) I beat using more saves than normal since that's basically my instinct whenever I deal with crushers. At the start you can barrel down a tunnel against Cyberdemon rockets for blue armor, high tier ammo, and a backpack. For some reason I decided to go down that direction LAST, so I collected all those goodies just as I opened the exit. lol, whoops. There is a very memorable fight where you are prompted to use a rocket launcher against a horde of low tier enemies, meanwhile an archvile lurks from the back ranks and there is a screen of revenants up front. Just goes to show how creative Pavera gets with his archviles without making them unnecessarily difficult. This map also has a memorable cyberdemon encounter where two are posted on an island and you have an very interesting combination of enemies teleport in once you grab the rocket launcher. I'm noticing at this encounter in map 4, along with other spots in map 5, that there are often situations where you have enemies from two fronts, but you can create a (mostly) safe zone to deal with one front by itself if you mentally account for how a crowd of enemies have great difficulty pathfinding out of a cul-de-sac / corner. Clever! Probably intentional? ~
General thoughts on monster usage:
I've fought so many archvile encounters now, many of them against multiple viles, but I don't think I've eaten that many blasts and its not frustrating when I do. I can't tell you how many times I play community wads and get instantly zapped by a sudden archvile closet or archvile teleport. (Heck, I can't tell you how many times pressing the 'mdk' key isn't even enough to save me from unfair damage!)
I talked before about how Archantrons and Mancubi are hard enemies to use, and Pavera's maps show good ways to use them. The boring way to use them is just to mix them in like random room filler, which ends up with the player relying on door fighting or corner fighting. It's more interesting to have these enemies at longer ranges separate from the crowds, although it does require a lot more thought and planning so that there is something else going on too at shorter distances. I think there have been a couple times where he uses deliberately uses Mancubi as "marching threats", i.e. where you deal with a more pressing second front while 2-3 mancubi travel down a hallway to get closer to you. Pavera doesn't overuse Demons and Spectres. He'll have encounters where they clearly are the main theme, but they are infrequent enemies otherwise. I somewhat jokingly consider Demons/Spectres to be my most hated enemy, partly because they are sprinkled around as very boring filler in community maps, and partly because it doesn't feel great to always take a bunch of unexpected damage against a crowd of ranged enemies because you strafed into one sneaky Demon that came from the side. Neither of these things really happen in his maps.
Pain Elementals are used pretty sparingly, but with an effective purpose. I guess this fits with the way the doomworld community seems to dislike this monster and thinks they can be overused by amateur designers. I personally think Pain Elementals are one of my favorite enemies, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to make them very frequent.
Clearly Pavera thinks very carefully and deliberately about the unique properties of each monster, and probably has a list of rules and preferences for using each one.
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Post by Xeogred on Jun 27, 2021 8:20:10 GMT -5
This map has many examples of using enemies to provide area denial through windows or ledges, and not just placing those enemies on shelves as filler content.
Eviternity sprinkled in so much fodder in halls, rooms, and everywhere, which got seriously boring to me frequently in just about every map. This is a huge key difference with Pavera's style. I can't think of any boring encounters or filler monster placement from him!
The second point here might be kind of what I was getting at earlier about his style never going into full slaughter territory, yet there are dozens of enemies everywhere and tons to mow down. Such an awesome style.
Rarely will I play something and think just a few days later, I need to replay it ASAP haha. But I can't stop thinking about Arrival. Maybe I do have to give it the edge over Syringe. I keep trying to think "What else out there is like Pavera's style?" and continue to come up with no answer.
On Doomworld Pavera mentioned his least favorite map was 7. I think I still dug it though but noticed it was easier. That's fine though, I'll be curious to hear your takeaway on 7-9.
I'm just reluctant to really cement my favorites since it's been ages since I played Alien Vendetta. I don't doubt myself, but it's hard to recall the specifics. So I'm due for a replay on that one, yet I tend to recall that it has a lot of large maps after awhile, so I'm not sure if I'm in the mood for it. But perhaps it's a quicker campaign than something like TNT, it's just been too long. That's probably the oldest wad I've played that I'd still hold in high regard though. I'd like to revisit Community Chest Pack 3 someday. The first two are fascinatingly huge mixed bags, but I recall CC3 being pretty consistent and had some really cool maps.
I'm always surprised that people love Ancient Aliens over Valiant. Both are top tier for me since I like skillsaw's style a lot, but I think the goofier tone and neon lighting aesthetic for AA was a little too much for me after awhile. I like how Valiant is more reserved in comparison.
Kind of funny, I sampled the first map and didn't like it much because of the new sounds and Doomgirl, but this was just a smudge before I replayed D2TWID and Syringe, realizing I like his style a lot. So if I'm still itching for more Doom, I think I'll consider this or Plutonia Revisited. Or... Arrival again.
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Post by EasyHard on Jun 27, 2021 21:16:51 GMT -5
You should just toss together a favorites based on pure instinct and post it anyway. My list 100% has doubts in it, and you aren't going to have perfect memories in the future either. I didn't dig Ancient Aliens, although I sometimes think I should give it another try since I'm not sure how much of a chance I gave it. Earlier this year I went back and tried all of skillsaw's notable wads that I hadn't played yet and I bounced off them hard. I'm probably crazy for wanting to return to AA since I don't like his style. Anyway, I've beaten maps 7+8 of Arrival. Map 7 (Shrine of Moss) was easier, although perhaps no more so than the easier half of this wad. It reminds me most of Map 5 (The Spectre's Manse). I think you said a couple pages back that Pavera likes to give you different weapons at the start of each map. I notice that he also mixes up the ways to start a map with light resistance. The first time I played I woke up a lot of lost souls and had a few chaingunners to fight for my first weapon. There is some flexibility on how you get yourself up to speed at the start, as in which enemies get aggro'ed first and which weapons you collect. The next map has even more flexibility. There is a section early on where it goes "ooops, all Mancubi!" which was memorable. Halfway through this mancubus theatre you get close enough to pick them off, but I notice that I trust Pavera enough that I'm willing to run into many areas under fire. Likewise, there are other times in these maps where I advance with stutter steps through areas with enemies at my back that could have been cleared out first. It's definitely a fun way to play since it involves more pressure and improvisation, but it requires feeling comfortable that the mapper didn't place a giant "screw you" linedef deeper in that area. Map 08 (Bloodstone Citadel) has a lot of flexibility on how to start, and you are forced to really explore these options because it starts out with many pressure filled encounters in close proximity to one another. I had to do another round of trial-and-error starts when I died mid-level, but after that I was golden. I wanted to use no saves for this level and it made it that much more exciting given the length and difficulty. Ammo was always, lets say, "interesting" to manage since you don't get an overabundance of shells until near the end. Pushing forward into rooms and new areas because you want ammo is one of the finer parts of map design and admittedly one that I rarely pay conscious attention to. Halfway into the map you get the red key and turn around to leave and there this extremely dense teleport army (with lots of revanants and mancubi) that starts coming for you across a bridge. Shoving rockets and plasma down the gullet of this bridge was fun, and you are pressured to get the archvile within the crowd. Clever. I got him but I ran out of rockets very quickly and the enemies just kept coming. This is shortly after the BFG, but I completely forgot to use it until the dust cleared, which was a big "doh" moment. In the area holding the blue key there is this ramp/hallway that is filled practically shoulder to shoulder with enemies that can't reach you. I wonder if this was just a hilarious setup, because it looks like a nutso monster party from the distance. The archanotrons are in the back, the imps are in the middle, and the shotgunners are in the front and they just infight each other to death. After the blue key I'm proud that I opened a blue door leading to an unexpected invulnerability sphere, was able to grab it and navigate to its intended location while figuring out on the fly where I should be going. It's something that Doom levels will do on rare occasions, although it's more of a "Quake-like" feeling (all those Pentagrams, Quad Damages, and Invisibility Rings).
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Post by Xeogred on Jun 27, 2021 22:53:51 GMT -5
It probably wouldn't be much surprise for you since I think I listed what I played earlier, but yeah I could probably do it for Doomworld and designate some points. I'm surprised to see Plutonia 2 quite high on their list too. I mean, I dug it for the most part, outside of dozens of maps having annoying hot starts. But it didn't blow me away. Even though they're different styles like the iwads, I liked TNT Revilution a lot more, which doesn't seem to be getting much love there.
I may have done all the skillsaw wads on HMP, perhaps they would have annoyed me more on UV. What don't like you about his style?
Regarding MAP08, I know what you mean about the awesome beginning. I think there was some green armor in the lava floor nearby? Thinking about my trial and error starts on this map and all now, I think I often find myself kind of cowering to lower ground (in this case even with damaging floors haha, I remember picking off a few Revenant's when they walked over to the starting platform and I was down below in the lava). My style doesn't often lead to good rewards with guns/items, but I guess it can give me more cover, especially from Mancubi and such.
I know the exact moment and bridge you're talking about too with the red key. I'll admit, I saved and that part took me several attempts. I remember sometimes the AV would squeeze through the crowd and be in front, or at other attempts he'd be in the back with the Mancubi in that big circular room if that rings a bell. But yeah, me saving a lot is also why I'd love to give Arrival another shot and limit that.
I remember finding the Invulnerability and BFG on that map too. I think the blue key area led to a lot of steps that went around some tall structures and the end had two AV's? If that's the part I'm thinking of. I know that Invulnerability came in handy.
I managed to get 10 maps into Tarnman's Projectile Hell. Oh boy, not sure what to say about this one. There's gun replacements, enemy modifications, item stat changes, etc. I played the first episode on UV with a LOT of saving. If you read the Doomworld thread, you can see a lot of critics knocking it for the difficulty or lack of resources. Oh and wait, technically I just skipped MAP08 eventually. It was nothing but like 90 AV's. Tarnsman said this was a speedmapping project he fleshed out more but yeah... maybe I'm just a fan of reserved/vanilla maps from him. I bumped MAP09 (E2) down to HMP, but it's still kind of crazy. I had a decent time and don't have any serious complaints once I got a hang of the modifications, but yeah. Not sure if I'll continue with this one or not.
First map of Plutonia Revisited was pretty crazy. Not sure I want to pistol start this one just yet.
Kind of perked up when I saw a midi pack for TNT released.
But yeah, those three random things of Doom for me today, I might be burned out for now.
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