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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 20:52:21 GMT -5
anayo Wait, if you're in boot camp, you're not supposed to say "Sir, yes sir!" to your drill sergeant?
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Post by Ex on May 21, 2020 21:28:48 GMT -5
A gamer with no military background probably won’t care about such minutiae. But to someone who knows anything about that world, it robs the game of credibility and comes across as phony. To play devil's advocate; nobody went into Opposing Force because they wanted to observe realistic marines who always behaved by protocol and followed strict military discipline. They went into Opposing Force because they wanted to shoot more aliens and bash more headcrabs with crowbars. (And Opposing Force delivered wholeheartedly on that aspect.) So if you're willing to accept the unrealistic aliens, you should be ready to accept the unrealistic marines. On the other hand; if you were to play a game that's suppose to be a realistic military experience, such as ARMA, Ghost Recon, Full Spectrum Warrior: Ten Hammers, America's Army, or Operation Flashpoint - something to that effect - and the marines were still spewing unrealistic dialogue, I think in that case your observation would be a highly legitimate complaint. At the same time, movies can only convey so much... visuals and dialogue being the principle factor. People are coming to the movie for the story, and maybe some eye candy. People largely come to video games for the gameplay, and maybe some eye candy. In that regard I don't think comparing films to video games, or novels to video games, is apples to apples. Because novels have only one thing to offer the reader; quality writing. That's it. If the writing isn't believable, and the story isn't interesting, the novel has literally nothing else to offer. Novels don't have sexy graphics, sumptuous audio, high interactivity, and presumably fun gameplay... to go along with their writing. Because game developers know that the majority of gamers aren't coming to the game for its writing, the writing tends to be the last thing that matters during development. Most players only desire a vague premise as to why the player is shooting X or blowing up Y. Andy Emery sounds like someone who has never played a quality visual novel or adventure game in his life. His complaints are perhaps true enough in regards to action games, and especially AAA action games, and probably 2/3rds of RPGs. But they aren't true at all when it comes to visual novels and adventure games. People often forget these genres exist when they start criticizing video game writing. Visual novels/adventure games are the genres of video gaming where the story matters as much, if not more than, the graphics/audio/gameplay. Now I'm not saying every VN/adventure game has a great story (nor does every film or novel!), but a lot of VN/adventure games have good stories. Some VN/adventure games have great stories. But because VN/adventure games are slow methodical experiences, they are often not played by the majority of gamers, and therefore those gamers have no experience with the quality of writing that higher echelon VN/adventure games offer. These two genres remain relatively niche to the greater demographic of video game players as a result. On this final note I agree with you entirely. Video games that utilize writing as a primary element should employ professional writers, who have experience crafting entrancing and convincing stories. At the same time we should keep in mind that not every video game needs a good story, as say a novel does. But every video game needs good gameplay, as say a novel doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 23:57:23 GMT -5
A gamer with no military background probably won’t care about such minutiae. But to someone who knows anything about that world, it robs the game of credibility and comes across as phony. People largely come to video games for the gameplay, and maybe some eye candy. In that regard I don't think comparing films to video games, or novels to video games, is apples to apples. I'm not so sure this is true. "Story" has long been a criterion for judging a game as far back at least as the 90s from what I remember of reading magazines back in the day. With the advent of story-driven games, I'd say more and more people are making games all about story and immersion. Otherwise, why would there be so much damn dialogue. Incidentally, I literally came across this review a couple minutes ago: This was a quote on GameFAQs from 2005. For action games, undoubtedly. But most RPGs have so little action, or else it's very repetitive action without relying on reflexes like other genres. But I disagree with the part about novels having nothing else to offer. The excess of text allow for depth and imagination far beyond a game could ever offer. There's a reason books are still sold in droves despite TV, movies, and games being out. The latter force the visual upon us, while the former allow us to visualize something ourselves. With games, there will always be a goal (I'd say by definition of the word game; an interactive experience without a goal simply isn't a game in the technical sense), while books aren't so limited. I think the more I think about this, the more and more I've come to dislike most RPGs. It's too much awful storytelling/bad writing and too little novel gameplay. But I've always preferred, say, Secret of Mana over Chrono Trigger for this exact reason.
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Post by toei on May 22, 2020 9:06:55 GMT -5
Ex I just want to point out that novels might need good writing and interesting stories for people like you and me to enjoy them, but they require neither to be popular or critically-acclaimed. The Da Vinci Code was a huge bestseller, and the writing is atrocious. It's painful to read. And beyond the sort-of intriguing idea that Jesus had kids and his descendants are still alive, hidden by the Vatican - which Dan Brown got from some essay - the story is idiotic, too. There's this whole bit about this savage albino reared by the Jesuits to murder people who get in their way. Why is he albino? Because rare genetic conditions are scary, I guess? It's like something out of some 19th century dime-store novel, where evil people are always handicapped, deformed or foreign. On the other end of the spectrum, my uncle used to give me Nobel-prize winning novels for Christmas, and they hardly ever told a story. For example, one was about an old Portuguese translator. He was supposed to be working on something, but mostly he just spent his days walking around and thinking about classical writers and art and history. So the whole thing amounted to a series of cultivated digressions with no particular point. And maybe I shouldn't call them digressions, since there barely was a main subject in the first place. This was a big trend in "serious litterature" for years, particularly in Europe. Stories were considered childish, so serious writers had better stick to showing off their bourgeois education. Another one, from China, was about a man leaving home and walking throughout the country, observing people and talking to himself. Observing them superficially, while passing them by, and mostly talking to himself about himself, also superficially. It was quite boring. (I think it's called Soul Mountain).
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Post by Ex on May 22, 2020 11:34:19 GMT -5
I'm not so sure this is true. "Story" has long been a criterion for judging a game as far back at least as the 90s from what I remember of reading magazines back in the day. With the advent of story-driven games, I'd say more and more people are making games all about story and immersion. Otherwise, why would there be so much damn dialogue. It still depends on the genre. When people buy The Last of Us Part II, the game's story will be a big motivator, but when they buy Street Fighter V or Tetris Ultimate, I find it hard to believe either of those two games' plots are the driving impetus behind the purchase. There is indeed a genre of gaming called "cinematic experiences" where the (highly linear) video game does its best to impersonate a film. I think you all know the kind of AAA showboats I'm talking about. With those games studios in recent years have been hiring professional writers. In TLoUPII's case, Halley Gross. That quote is complete nonsense from a reviewer who was being negatively hyperbolic. Radiata Stories has a plot. Here's a synopsis: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiata_Stories#PlotNow maybe that reviewer didn't enjoy the game's plot, and fair enough if he didn't. An "excess of text allowing depth and imagination" falls in line with what I said earlier: "Because novels have only one thing to offer the reader; quality writing. That's it. "If a novel is able to successively portray "depth and imagination" adequately, then said novel is ergo composed of quality writing. If the novel isn't able to portray its given subject matter adequately, then its writing is not quality. And I assure you that many of us on HRG, myself included, are fairly avid novel readers. We have a thread about it: hardcoreretrogaming.boards.net/thread/171/hrgs-novel-hovelI won't deny there are plenty of sluggish RPGs with bad writing and repetitive shallow gameplay. But I also won't deny that there are well-paced RPGs with excellent writing and consistently interesting gameplay. Nonetheless it's doubtless each of us have particular genres in the video gaming lexicon, that we do not care for. For example, I do not care for online multiplayer gaming experiences whatsoever. but they require neither to be popular or critically-acclaimed. The Da Vinci Code was a huge bestseller, and the writing is atrociousWell there's never any accounting for taste. The lowest common denominator will always be the most common, and swine need not pearls to happily wallow in muck. So yes, a great many people will always devour that which they are told they should. This is as true in the worlds of movies and video games, as it is in the the world of books. In the case of The Da Vinci Code, I own that novel and its predecessor, but I have not read them yet personally. (Nor have I seen the film adaptation.) I personally remain neutral towards the novel for now. Regardless of lacking an overarching plot, such novels as those you describe still had to have quality writing, for their loose conglomeration of observational digressions to be worthy of the reader's contemplation. I've read novels that functioned similarly. It's rare that I liked them. To the point, such works are often evocative of an author who thinks perhaps a little too highly of their own personal musings, failing to realize that in a world of billions, their precious little mind, and its precious little thoughts, are hardly as unique as they've grown up believing. Though again, for the greater mass of today's non-philosophical consumers, any vicariously experienced contemplative weltanschauung at all, is likely revelatory page after page.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 11:53:08 GMT -5
I'm not so sure this is true. "Story" has long been a criterion for judging a game as far back at least as the 90s from what I remember of reading magazines back in the day. With the advent of story-driven games, I'd say more and more people are making games all about story and immersion. Otherwise, why would there be so much damn dialogue. It still depends on the genre. When people buy The Last of Us Part II, the game's story will be a big motivator, but when they buy Street Fighter V or Tetris Ultimate, I find it hard to believe either of those two games' plots are the driving impetus behind the purchase. There is indeed a genre of gaming called "cinematic experiences" where the (highly linear) video game does its best to impersonate a film. I think you all know the kind of AAA showboats I'm talking about. With those games studios in recent years have been hiring professional writers. In TLoUPII's case, Halley Gross. Some are, yeah. The original point though, since we've been sidetracked a bit, is that so many games where the story is central have awful writing, and that is to their detriment. That quote is complete nonsense from a reviewer who was being negatively hyperbolic. Radiata Stories has a plot. Here's a synopsis: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiata_Stories#PlotNow maybe that reviewer didn't enjoy the game's plot, and fair enough if he didn't.[/quote] I brought up the quote to show that paramount importance some (many imo) put on story in games. Heck, I have frequently seen people complain about the lack of a story in a 2D platformer.
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Post by Sarge on May 22, 2020 12:50:48 GMT -5
I meant to comment on Radiata Stories. Yeah, it has a plot, but the game definitely loses it for quite a bit of time. It feels pretty meandering. It's also one of the first real disappointments I had from tri-Ace. It's not terrible, but I thought even Star Ocean 3 was better overall, despite the massive difficulty spike and incredibly dumb plot twist.
Oh, hey, yeah, talk about dumb writing. That was... uh, weird.
I'm of the opinion that story can matter, but it doesn't have to. It really depends on the genre. You can even have a platformer or fighting game have a great story, but in the end I don't know if it matters too much there. It's kinda like folks wanting a better story out of Castlevania. Nah, I don't care, just give me a flimsy excuse to go beat down Dracula and I'm good. In that case, the story should be more to drive the atmosphere than anything.
I will say, though, that I think there are works of writing (or artistry, anything, really) where they're long and obtuse and "deep", and they get critical acclaim. I'm sure some deserve it, but I do think some critics enjoy being the only ones that "get it", as opposed to the lowly plebs that just aren't sophisticated enough to understand. I'm reminded many years ago of a segment 60 Minutes did on an art display/auction, and one of the paintings was a blank canvas with a red dot in the middle. Another just spelled "RAT" down the center repeatedly. These things sold for crazy money, and I think it was mostly to assuage the ego of the buyers more than anything. To his credit, Morley Safer flat out said he didn't get it either.
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Post by Ex on May 22, 2020 13:29:10 GMT -5
It's kinda like folks wanting a better story out of Castlevania. Nah, I don't care, just give me a flimsy excuse to go beat down Dracula and I'm good. Well put, and that's exactly why I haven't bothered watching the Netflix Castlevania series. There was a time when I was much younger, where I did not appreciate abstract art at all. But I've become more open minded in the years since. Reading art philosophy essays and watching documentaries like Power of Art helped give me a different perspective on abstract artwork.
But is there anything more subjective than appreciating art? I'm not sure if there is. So while I'll no longer disavow anyone's opinion as to whether something is "art" or not, I'll admit I don't always see the same gravitas and pathos they might in the image. Sometimes knowing the life history and philosophical/political leanings of the artist in question, helps to illuminate the meaning in an otherwise obscure artwork.
Also, rich folks like to invest in expensive artwork, not necessarily for the artistic value, but for the lasting monetary value. I'd be willing to wager quite a few rich investors own artwork they couldn't care less about concerning its artistic leaning, so much as it's worth a million today and when the artist dies it'll be worth ten million.
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Post by toei on May 22, 2020 13:33:01 GMT -5
I meant to comment on Radiata Stories. Yeah, it has a plot, but the game definitely loses it for quite a bit of time. It feels pretty meandering. It's also one of the first real disappointments I had from tri-Ace. It's not terrible, but I thought even Star Ocean 3 was better overall, despite the massive difficulty spike and incredibly dumb plot twist. Oh, hey, yeah, talk about dumb writing. That was... uh, weird. I'm of the opinion that story can matter, but it doesn't have to. It really depends on the genre. You can even have a platformer or fighting game have a great story, but in the end I don't know if it matters too much there. It's kinda like folks wanting a better story out of Castlevania. Nah, I don't care, just give me a flimsy excuse to go beat down Dracula and I'm good. In that case, the story should be more to drive the atmosphere than anything. I will say, though, that I think there are works of writing (or artistry, anything, really) where they're long and obtuse and "deep", and they get critical acclaim. I'm sure some deserve it, but I do think some critics enjoy being the only ones that "get it", as opposed to the lowly plebs that just aren't sophisticated enough to understand. I'm reminded many years ago of a segment 60 Minutes did on an art display/auction, and one of the paintings was a blank canvas with a red dot in the middle. Another just spelled "RAT" down the center repeatedly. These things sold for crazy money, and I think it was mostly to assuage the ego of the buyers more than anything. To his credit, Morley Safer flat out said he didn't get it either. The Star Ocean 3 thing is the result of plot twists being overvalued in games writing, particularly around that time. Coming up with plot twist that's both genuinely surprising and not completely idiotic is a really fine line to thread, because the more sense it makes, the easier it is to see coming, unless an author is just that sneaky. As for the last part, a lot of it has to do with art critics (including the more self-serious film critics) constructing elaborate theories and schools of criticism that may place a very specific aspect of art above all others or pretend to be able to fit all of art into some narrow analytic grid. The more popular of those notions are taught in schools, which means that even artists who take them a bit too seriously can get lost in them and produce works that only mean anything or have any sort of value to people who fully subscribe to said notions. A big thing among critics, for example, is art that comments on art (or that they believe comments on art). Which is why you could just write the word "NOTHING" on a canvas and it would probably fascinate some of those people. Is it really nothing, if it says it is? Can nothingness be self-aware? Or if it's intended to declare the canvas below as nothing, does it not paradoxically become something, the media for a message? You could could go on and on, if you like those sorts of pointless thought games. Ultimately, while some of it is down to simple pretension, I wonder if certain critics don't just come up with those theories because they get bored of the subject matters their entire professional lives are built around.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 21:36:52 GMT -5
In that case, the story should be more to drive the atmosphere than anything. Oh, yeah! This is why I love Super Castlevania IV (despite all the hate) and Super Metroid so much. It just oozes atmosphere. I mean, the gameplay can't be awful, but atmosphere really makes up for a lot.
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