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Post by anayo on Aug 26, 2023 10:06:19 GMT -5
One day I was looking at Digital Foundry’s YouTube channel when I decided to sort by popular. Most of the videos that floated to the top were Grand Theft Auto-themed. Their view counts were in the 7-8 figure range, but none of them had that red line underneath indicating that I had seen them. They were mostly unwatched.
I found this strange, because I watch Digital Foundry all the time, but most of these GTA videos were so unfamiliar to me. So, I rearranged by “latest” and took stock of the DF videos I had actually watched: mostly DF retro videos with view counts in the 5-6 figure range. I noticed an inverse relationship between a video's mainstream popularity and how likely I was to watch it.
About ten years ago I had a roommate who seemed unhappy because he was attending a school where the prevailing culture was nerdy, but he was more of an athletic jock. I think this made him feel like he didn’t fit in. In other students’ dorm rooms you would see things like gaming PCs or D&D peraphernlia. This roommate would say that he often thought about leaving school, going back home, and being a cop.
This roommate was indifferent to video games. I think his idea of a good time was to go out drinking or play volleyball. Then Grand Theft Auto V came out. He went straight to the store and bought a new PS3 just to play GTA V. I don’t think he even owned any other games.
This is an illustration of what I was trying to point out via those DF video view counts. GTA has mass appeal drawing in people who otherwise couldn’t care less about gaming. There are easily ten times as many fans of GTA than fans of literally anything we would talk about here on the Hardcore Retro Gaming forums.
My first question is, does this put GTA in the same category as something like Wii Sports? In other words, is GTA for normies?
My second question is, I am drawn to retro gaming content with only 10,000’s or 100,000’s of views. The closer you get to 1,000,000’s and 10,000,000’s of views, the less likely I am to care. This is a statistical reality. But why am I like this? Do I have an innate need to be non-mainstream?
When I was much younger, nerd culture was considered to be outsider culture. People would think you were weird for liking anime, superhero comics, D&D, or video games. But now all of those things are celebrated openly.
Most average people now are receptive to video games, but they’ll balk at the outdated visuals of NES or the twangy audio of Sega Genesis. Is retro gaming an attempt to make video games weird again?
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Post by Ex on Aug 26, 2023 10:50:54 GMT -5
My first question is, does this put GTA in the same category as something like Wii Sports? In other words, is GTA for normies? The main thing that Wii Sports and GTA would have in common, is they they are specifically designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator within their target audience. That is why both achieved great success within that scope. I can't speak to why you are like that, or if you have an innate need to be non-mainstream. I don't think you are a fake-ass hipster who pretends to like retro games to be cool, though. If that's a concern. As for me, I have played the following GTA games: Grand Theft Auto PS1 Grand Theft Auto III PS2 Grand Theft Auto: Vice City PS2 Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars DS Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories PSP Of those entries I finished none. I had the same reaction to all five. I played for about 20-30 minutes and became increasingly bored with the game design. It starts out mildly interesting, and then heavy repetition sets in, and I lose all interest. Sure it's fun to run around and be batshit insane for a few minutes, to the point the military is called in to take you down. But once you start engaging in the actual mission design, those were just not fun. Formulaic, repetitive, shoddy, and tedious words that come to mind. Just because you can shoot hookers or crash into police cars does not an amazing game make. So while I can appreciate how the early GTA games brought open world city crime gameplay to life, it was done in a shallow way that quickly bored me. This is not a knock on Rockstar because Rockstar has made games I've enjoyed and loved. I enjoyed Manhunt, The Warriors, and L.A. Noire for instance. I loved Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead Redemption 2. Nor am I against the open world missions in city stuff, because L.A. Noire is like that and I highly enjoyed Sleeping Dogs. (For me Sleeping Dogs was like GTA except actually a good game.) And I do intend to give GTA4 and GTA5 both fair chances someday. But all that said, the previous GTA games I played were thick on violent randomness and thin on game design. I can see how that appeals to teenagers, but not necessarily adults. I'm not sure what you mean by that question. You'd have to elaborate a bit. I think it's safe to say that legitimate retro gamers, like the kind we have on HRG, are inherently unusual people. It takes a special kind of mind to not constantly fall victim to argumentum ad novitatem, and instead be able to appreciate any game no matter how old and crusty its graphics/audio/design paradigms are. If that requires a mind of higher intelligence than average, or endowed by wider experience thus broader perspective than average, or whatever one might attribute to the scenario... it's all up to debate. When I was much younger, nerd culture was considered to be outsider culture. People would think you were weird for liking anime, superhero comics, D&D, or video games. But now all of those things are celebrated openly. Yes but it took decades for those things to reach acceptance within the mainstream. It was a gradual permutation into the collective cultural consciousness. And within those mediums there are still niche hardcore nerds who like stuff that the mainstream folks are 100% oblivious to, and would reject if they knew about them. I'd say the guy who "loves anime" but only watches Naruto and Bleach isn't a real anime fan. But I'm an elitist dork who's been watching anime since the mid '80s, so what do I know.
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Post by toei on Aug 26, 2023 12:00:52 GMT -5
I don't know what a normie is. I spend entirely too much time on the Internet (something I may change in the future), and everyone on the Internet seems to be an introverted geek with weird beliefs about human relationships and the world in general. I'm generalizing. It's gone far beyond geek culture becoming mainstream - all the weirdest aspects of geek culture, the fringe stuff that everyone made fun 10-20 years, seem mainstream now, at least online. Furries, etc. I actually saw some furries in full costume walking out on the street the other day, for the first time in my life (unless that depressed-looking girl in a cow suit I used to see on my way to work was one - I always wondered if she worked as a mascot or what, because she looked like she hated life). The Internet became real that day. Pretty soon I'm going to see living ROMs and anime torrents out in the park. In real life, though, there are still plenty of people who aren't interested in being nerds. They'll play GTA, Call of Duty, UFC games. Games that appeal purely to the male brain, with no weirdness attached. Things that are obviously cool, without needing an offbeat sense of humor or an open-mind to appreciate them. Maybe I do know what a normie is, then. I just don't call people that because I'm not interested in being a full-time nerd. I have lots of niche interests, but I see the appeal of a GTA or combat sports too.
I don't have a need to not be mainstream, but it inevitably happens almost all the time. This is because I'm very curious and I like to dig, and because I value the media I consume. I can enjoy shallow entertainment, but I never say "it's just a movie/game" to excuse a flaw. I don't approach games and movies and shows like they're cheeseburgers or slices of pie, a serving of some anonymous mass-produced good that just has to do the job. I want to watch and play everything that looks good or even just interesting. I'll never have time for it, but that's how my mind works. When I do like something popular, I'm glad, because that gives me something to talk about with people. Like Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. I can't talk about most of favorite games, movies, etc. with anyone out in the world. I wish I could enjoy superhero movies or whatever, but I don't. So I watch old yakuza movies that speak to me on a deep level and hardly ever speak about them. It's hard to even recommend a lot of the stuff I like because you need additional cultural context for it to make sense or repeated viewings/plays before it clicks.
For me retro gaming is an extension of all that. I care about media and value it individually. I want to consume all of it that appeals to me, but don't have time; this means some of it because old-school by the time I get to it. I don't think of entertainment as the snack food of time-spending, which means it doesn't go bad after some arbitrary expiry date (when people stop talking about it, I guess).
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Post by Sarge on Aug 26, 2023 15:13:03 GMT -5
I think there's more mainstream gaming tastes, and games that aren't. GTA falls into the former for sure, in that you can potentially play it and still not be considered a "gamer", at least not of the type that does deep dives into old retro systems like we do. And certainly not the Japanese, "weeaboo" scene. It's the sort of gaming that I feel the culture has deemed acceptable - there's such a zeitgeist behind it that you won't see anyone judge you for playing it like they might some anime-ish game like Xenoblade or even more esoteric titles. It's in the same category to some degree as Madden or Halo or Call of Duty - games that are so popular that you often want to be a part of them when they're current.
That being said, I think that the mentality around gaming has changed. We have a generation raising kids now that never gave it up, or at least have fond memories of it, so the stigma doesn't really remain in full force, but I do still think certain types of games are viewed more acceptable than others.
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Post by Ex on Aug 27, 2023 23:26:29 GMT -5
I don't know what a normie is. According to the Urban Dictionary:Normie"A person gravitating to social standards, accepted practices, and fads of their own time & geographic grouping without broader cultural perspectives from which they draw.
Normies possess a lack of interest in ideas not easily accessible or being outside of their/society's current range of acceptance. A straight. A follower.
Most normies adopt a "popularity is the only measure of good or bad" mindset at an early age.
Normies typically have a sense of cultural superiority over "counter culture" movements & foreign cultures. They will often try to discredit out cultures or choices falling outside of their majority think claiming those of other dispositions are mentally ill or out of touch with reality.
By perspective normies of this generation would have been the social outcasts of the uber conformist 50s.
Most normies don't believe they are so. A deep generational delusion has since persisted -allowing them to believe they are defying a system of social rules long since defunct.
This group can easily be molded to suit virtually any desired value system. In Americas capitalist system, normies have been adapted to consume whats easily attainable with little to no resistance. Popular is good. Therefore all that has been perceived to be vetted by their peers then is accepted.
As their majority cultural definitions are rooted in shallow concepts and fads that soon expire they're often then called old.">everyone on the Internet seems to be an introverted geek >with weird beliefs about human relationships and the world in general Take into consideration the internet circles you frequent versus the greater internet. >I actually saw some furries in full costume walking out on the street the other day IIRC you live in a Canadian metropolis. In that locale the chances of randoms larping internet memes is greater. You won't see IRL furries in 95% of towns and cities in North America. >I just don't call people that because I'm not interested in being a full-time nerd Some people call them muggles, some normies, and some NPCs, a variety of derogatory terms. To me these folks are simply too lazy to put any effort into exploring and appreciating media beyond the laziest approach. The lazy approach being, they only consume the most obvious and mainstream media that is automatically plopped in front of their face. I guess ignorance is bliss so if potboiler is their food of choice so be it. >this means some of it because old-school by the time I get to it Same scenario happens for me often. A highly acclaimed, very popular game may be 10-20 years old before I get around to it, simply because I haven't spent the majority of my adult life playing video games every free second.
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Aug 28, 2023 9:16:15 GMT -5
The blackpill about normans is that most aren't simply lazy but low IQ. This means no internal monologue, no mental heuristics, no understanding of conditional hypotheticals, lack of empathy, no "deep" introspective thought whatsoever. In terms of hobbies and media, this means the average adult has never purposefully read a book beyond what was required for high school, has never listened to music outside of radio pop/rock, and the same is true with vidya. I remember a pal on the Racketboy forums was a professor who literally taught a class on video game culture(?), and was dismayed to discover all his students only played Madden and GTA.
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Post by Ex on Aug 28, 2023 9:40:52 GMT -5
This is the one that astounds me. I can't even imagine not having an internal monologue. My head never shuts up, I'm always thinking internally about something with the "inner voice". Even have internal arguments and debates with myself. It's not uncommon for this internal monologue to become an external monologue. One time my wife asked me why do I talk to myself. I said I do it when I want to have an intelligent conversation. She didn't care for that answer. >this means the average adult has never purposefully read a book beyond what was required for high school I believe that statistic. >was dismayed to discover all his students only played Madden and GTA Guess he had plenty to teach then.
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Post by toei on Aug 28, 2023 10:06:21 GMT -5
Isn't that just stuff nerds made up to feel better about themselves? Like those sad weirdos in youtube comment sections who congratulate themselves on not having any friends because everyone's always trying to take advantage / murder you? I'm not saying you're sad if you're a complete introvert and you don't like company; but you certainly are if you feel the need to reassure yourself that it makes you better than others somehow. All that talk about normies reeks of cope, or the need to feel special. But everybody seems to think they're special in some way. Everybody's so unique.
I don't think you need to be particularly intelligent to have an internal monologue, for example. I know some of the really dumb people I've met have one. I think most people have some amount of it, hence why getting into meditation is so difficult for nearly everyone. It's really hard not to think about a bunch of currently useless shit. The attitude I've observed among people is the "it's just a show / movie" thing. Meaning they see entertainment / art as not being particularly important, so they're not going to waste energy searching for anything. I can certainly believe that a lot of people aren't curious. I've heard and read that most adults have no real imagination or creativity. Maybe that's true. Both uncurious and uncreative types can annoy me sometimes. All the same, geeks who obsess over media are rarely well-rounded. I know I'm not well-rounded enough (yet), and I know many are worse. I don't get the impression that media-obsessed geeks are particularly high on empathy either, as a rule. I've yet to come across anything described as a "blackpill" that was actually true. The most pessimistic take on any topic is usually just as delusional and ridiculous as the most optimistic take.
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Post by Ex on Aug 28, 2023 11:04:50 GMT -5
>those sad weirdos in youtube comment sections who congratulate themselves on not having any friends
Never go full hikikomori.
>Everybody's so unique
Some of us are, perhaps, more unique than others. But nobody's special.
>I've heard and read that most adults have no real imagination or creativity
Consider the percentile of humanity that are active artists/creators; that is likely true.
>Both uncurious and uncreative
I won't attribute creativity to intelligence, but I will curiosity. There are plenty of studies showing that the more intelligent a person is, the more curious they are in tandem. Ergo the "normie" lack of curiosity towards deep diving into mediums they otherwise enjoy, could be attributed to a lesser correlation in intelligence.
>geeks who obsess over media are rarely well-rounded
If someone overdoses their mind into a particular subject, to the point it's all they really care about, or want to talk about, then I agree that's not a well-rounded mindset. Just like if someone's opinions on entertainment and life in general are 100% stale vanilla cookie-cutter mainstream, I wouldn't consider that a well-rounded individual either.
>don't get the impression that media-obsessed geeks are particularly high on empathy either
I don't think humanity in general is high on empathy these days.
>The most pessimistic take on any topic is usually just as delusional and ridiculous as the most optimistic take.
Binary thinking is generally a fallacy.
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Post by Sarge on Aug 28, 2023 12:44:02 GMT -5
Just on the subject of gaming and digging deeper, while I certainly enjoy a good story or learning more about older games, I don't generally delve very deeply into things like deeper meanings of the games I consume. Not that games usually have that sort of depth, but I'm not an art/movie critic that is trying to overanalyze my fiction.
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