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Post by Ex on Feb 12, 2018 11:09:20 GMT -5
I already wrote a piece explaining why I personally still enjoy retro gaming, but what about you? What are your reasons to continue to explore (or replay) yesteryear's games? Despite the insurmountable constant stream of new video games every day, what remains unique to this medium's past which holds your interest in retro video gaming?
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Post by Sarge on Feb 12, 2018 15:22:58 GMT -5
I think the biggest reason is that, despite the indie revival out there, the types of games on display are just not represented very well in modern gaming. And there may be some indie games that I really love, but a lot of it really doesn't capture the same magic.
Furthermore, older games are what I think of when it comes to gaming. Almost as if it's "true" gaming. I recognize that a part of that has to do with what I grew up with, but that's why I still enjoy it. The games that got me into gaming are 8-bit classics, and that sort of play was continued in the 16-bit era. Not everything was gold, but it's just really hard to top the best 2D retro games of all time in my mind.
Interestingly, though, even though I got into JRPGs on 8-bit platforms, it was the 16-bit era up to the PS2 that really made them shine. I find I'm fairly burned out on many of them now; there were a lot of copycat mechanics, and many don't have the magic of the big hitters like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest. But there's still so much out there, not only on systems I've played to death, but also systems I might have never touched. There's a sense of discovery, given how much there is out there.
Accessibility certainly helps, too. I mean, not that I want to be a dirty software pirate, but much of this stuff is hard to find. Emulation for the older systems is rock solid. This makes exploring libraries of games you've never even touched much easier. Sure, it might lead to analysis paralysis, having too many options. But a good scheme for whittling it down (like the themes for Together Retro!) helps a ton.
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Post by Xeogred on Feb 12, 2018 18:49:39 GMT -5
In the wise words of Koji Igarashi: (source: 2007 www.engadget.com/2007/03/13/castlevanias-koji-igarashi-2d-games-will-never-die/) I'll always be a fan of both old and new gaming, but I can easily see how there could be some extreme divides or preferences through the medium for some people. Maybe even new young fans that just simply like how old 2D stuff plays compared to the new or vice versa. The jump from 2D to 3D is monumental. It's still a young medium all things considered and genres continue to evolve, for the better or the worse. I love 80's anime, 80's music, 80's movies, and even more from before and after that. I like to say that age should never really dictate "quality". There's a ton of elements to old generations to appreciate for the aesthetics, the pixel art, the tracker based chiptunes, the history, and challenges that programmers and designers had to face with such limited technology, etc. There's a lot of voids and even markets waiting to be filled in some areas. Unfortunately most of the indie games don't work too well with me because they lack authenticity. That could be sheer bias and nostalgia talking, but the few indie games I do like really have to strive to come off like something that truly could have released in the 90's on the 8-32bit platforms, like I'm playing some lost artifact that was meant to be released back then. A lot of times though, I'd also rather just go back and play old games I've missed out on instead. I can see how the 8bit era and before isn't for everyone with the lack of colors, glitchy edges, and whatnot, but I think someone would have to be out of their mind to say SNES or Genesis games "look bad". On a handful of podcasts I listen to, it seemed like this was the case when the SNES Classic dropped, a lot of people seemed blown away by how well a lot of those games hold up... they were always good. Time is a funny thing. But some old genres and ideas have sadly died out. A lot of modern games also tend to forget that in a lot of cases, less is more! We don't need so much complexity or onslaughts of tutorials. It's blissful to start up an old game that immediately has you playing within seconds and only a few buttons that are easy to quickly figure out. 2D platformers, beat em' ups, shmups, Contra's, Super Metroid's or Symphony of the Night's, etc, never got bad. They just got left behind and new genres or trends took over. I keep wondering if we'll see some PSX era throwbacks eventually and we already have with some Quake styled low res shooters or survival horror games. But I really wonder if pre-rendered backdrops and that style will ever be mimicked again someday. I'd love to see some modern original RE clones. I still wish big budget turned based JRPG's were still a thing too. I loved Lost Odyssey on the 360, which was one of the last big ones. So many classic genres of styles of games I'd keep playing... if we had them. And we do in the past! So there's always much to keep discovering and check out. As for some ultimate bias, going along with Sarge thinking the old is "true" gaming... for me that's just Japanese gaming. I don't want to ramble much longer but they obviously have different design philosophies than the West. Japan ruled home console gaming back in the day and that's what was built into my DNA. I like skills based games. Nowadays it's been great to see some Japanese games and IP's making a strong comeback in the more recent years and I've rediscovered the types of games I love the most. This is a trend I like and want to continue. I'm so glad the "Westernization" movement of the 360/PS3 era seems to be completely dead now. That flatout killed some developers and almost sunk Capcom. Maybe that answers it, somewhat.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 19:42:35 GMT -5
I don't have a complicated explanation because I simply like games. I suppose it's part nostalgia, part respect for the evolution of the medium and part just liking a lot of game design principles that are largely considered outdated by today's standards.
I definitely don't feel the same way as Xeo in regards to westernization being a bad thing largely because PC was my platform of choice growing up with the Genesis in second place, a console with a large western presence as well.
That said the industry did suffer as the big Japanese companies started falling because they simply did not have the money to compete on the AAA stage, we're finally reaching a plateau where mid-range games are finding a place in the market and Japan is becoming more prevalent again and that's a good thing.
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Post by anayo on Feb 12, 2018 21:28:56 GMT -5
1) Sometimes the old versions of my favorite games are better than the new version. Examples: Sonic the Hedgehog, Castlevania, Megaman, Metroid Prime, Gunstar Heroes, etc. 2) Certain styles of game design - like 2D sprite games - aren’t really made by major studios anymore. But I still like these kinds of games. Indie studios are trying to meet the demand, but there’s still a lot of old titles I haven’t experienced yet. 3) Modern games have stupid design principles like: A) Mandatory crafting systems (“Want to carry another weapon? First harvest 3 goat pelts to build a rifle sling, even though the enemies you killed were all obviously issued rifle slings.”) B) Mandatory experience points systems (“Sorry, your level isn’t high enough in this modern warfare FPS game to carry this weapon. Go kill a few more hundred enemy soldiers.”) C) Skill trees (“It worked for Fallout 3, so we’re doing it, too.”) D) Handholding (“Hey, player, did you know pressing this button does this action? Here’s a diagram.”) E) Achievement trophies (“Do this pointless thing and an icon will appear on your screen congratulating you for doing it.”) 4) AAA gaming is becoming more and more corporate and soulless. EA, Ubisoft, and Activision are the biggest perpetrators that come to mind. For example, this video helped me understand how Activision turned Bungie into a zombie-like shell of its former self: www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1T__yrloCY5) Contemporary gaming consoles saw a respectable increase in GPU power, but no corresponding increase in CPU power. So what’s out now is literally the same thing as before, just with nicer shaders and lighting effects. It’s depressing to finally have the disposable income to run out and buy a new gaming console for myself, but I’m not interested in any of them because they’re such a negligible upgrade over what was already available. This probably results in a higher percentage of my time and disposable income going toward older games.
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Post by toei on Feb 12, 2018 21:43:42 GMT -5
Like Sarge, most of the games I like to play are not being made except in the form of derivative, aesthetically-confused pseudo-retro games. Of course, there are also good modern games, both mainstream and indie, but I have a large backlog, and I even have a pretty sizeable backlog of games to try and see whether I want to add them to my backlog (about 45 right now). I'm just not in a hurry to spend money I don't have on new systems and games I don't have time to play when I already have games I want to play just as much. I'll get there eventually. Another thing is, my tastes in games are diversifying, so that opens up a bunch of new-to-me games on classic systems. And one last thing; the PS2 has an amazing library of games. There are tons of valid games that slipped under the radar and need to be rediscovered just like it happened with so many 8 and 16-bit titles through emulation. I don't really consider PS2 "old-school" - that generation is where the new school began, really - but I don't care so much about graphics, especially not in technical terms (a game can be low-tech and still look good), and to me that system has the last great library to explore.
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Post by Ex on Feb 12, 2018 22:21:13 GMT -5
Emulation for the older systems is rock solid. This makes exploring libraries of games you've never even touched much easier. I'll readily agree if it weren't for emulation, I wouldn't be anywhere near the retro gamer I am today. As expensive as legit retro games and hardware is now, can you imagine how much more expensive that stuff would be if emulation didn't exist? A lot of modern games also tend to forget that in a lot of cases, less is more! It's blissful to start up an old game that immediately has you playing within seconds and only a few buttons that are easy to quickly figure out. Both of these are big ones for me. Any time I start up a modern game I always dread the introductory movies, drawn out tutorials, hand holding first few levels, etc. Patronizing crap, all of it. we're finally reaching a plateau where mid-range games are finding a place in the market and Japan is becoming more prevalent again and that's a good thing. One of the reasons I have so many Vita games, is because that handheld is almost entirely Japanese gaming. At least from 2014 onward. I agree Japanese developers are starting to come back again. I think that's because of aesthetic stagnancy. I've seen SO many games on PS4 that could have been on PS3, graphically speaking, and most of those are Japanese developed. When people's expectations are tempered, coupled with cheaper and more easy to use modern gaming development packages, that starts to give less financially endowed studios a fighting chance. Contemporary gaming consoles saw a respectable increase in GPU power, but no corresponding increase in CPU power. So what’s out now is literally the same thing as before, just with nicer shaders and lighting effects. That is very much how I see it as well. I've seen so many PS4 and Xbox One games where I'm thinking, "That only marginally looks better than what I've seen on PS3 and 360." (Yes there are a few exceptions, speaking generally here.) I think large swaths of modern gamers are starting to get over graphics. Hence the indie market is so strong right now, and mobile gaming is so strong now, and the Switch is selling well, despite being a joke hardware-wise compared to PS4/One. Maybe, just maybe, people en masse are starting to realize graphics really aren't everything. Plus there's got to be a point of diminishing return for publishers on that. I have a large backlog / I'm just not in a hurry to spend money I don't have on new systems and games I don't have time to play when I already have games I want to play just as much. I fall into this category too, definitely not as much time as I'd need. Except, well, I do have enough disposable income to buy a PS4/One/Switch and whatever games I'd want for those systems, but I just don't feel the impetus to do so. I say that because of the tremendous amount of games I already have in my existing libraries. My current "games I want to buy" list is less than 20 entries. Now, that's the shortest it's ever been since I started keeping track. There's just not that much new stuff out there I'm interested in anymore. But hey! Forget that! This is a retro forum. Now, there's PLENTY of old stuff I'm interested in. Another thing is, my tastes in games are diversifying, so that opens up a bunch of new-to-me games on classic systems. I'm on the same wavelength. the PS2 has an amazing library of games / I don't really consider PS2 "old-school" / to me that system has the last great library to explore. The PS2 has a god tier library! TONS of amazing games, bucket loads of hidden gems (if you consider all regions). I do consider PS2 oldschool nowadays, being as it's now two generations behind, but I get what you mean. A lot of modern era gaming design blossomed from ideas on the PS2.
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Post by Xeogred on Feb 12, 2018 23:51:20 GMT -5
"aesthetic stagnancy" is a great way to put it. I think even casual gamers thesedays are realizing that graphics and technical prowess aren't that important. I think the wow factor for me kind of stopped after the PS2 era. There was and will always be some exciting exceptions every few years and I'm always a fan of new tech that adopts fairly early, but yeah that maximum ultra realistic super duper detailed budget is like the last thing I care about in a game nowadays. Sonic Mania had the best graphics in 2017. I think gunstar probably knows what I was getting at there. I'm just gad we don't see stuff like this anymore: Money is better spent elsewhere.
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Post by toei on Feb 13, 2018 3:00:42 GMT -5
I love the simplicity too. Learning how to do a few things well is more rewarding than doing a bunch of things without ever really getting to understand any of them. I think a lot of people miss that when they complain about old-school action games being overly simplistic. Or put differently, if it's so simple, why aren't you good at it?
And it's not about 2D vs. 3D to me. I love both. I grew up during the 16 and 32-bit eras, and I loved the Saturn and the games that Sega was putting out in the arcades in the mid-90s. I think Die Hard Arcade is the beat-'em-up ever, love Virtua Fighter, miss Virtua Cop and House of the Dead. There might have been a shift between 2D and 3D, but the first few waves of 3D games exist in a space of their own, too.
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Post by Ex on Feb 13, 2018 10:33:15 GMT -5
the first few waves of 3D games exist in a space of their own, too. I agree with this. The early years of Saturn and PS1 saw many developers playing with 3D in a variety of formats. 3D as a game design foundation was so new, developers were throwing all kinds of ideas at the wall to see what stuck. Some of the crazier ideas didn't stick, but because they didn't stick, they remain an idiosyncratic experience to this day.* Whereas more conventional approaches to using 3D game design** did stick, and persist to this day, thus making older iterations feel outdated rather than delightfully weird. *Stuff like Dancing Eyes, Jumping Flash, and LSD: Dream Emulator are good examples. **Core 3D staples such as FPS, third person action adventure, and 3D platformers for instance.
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