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Post by Ex on Aug 26, 2020 8:40:31 GMT -5
You can tell Quake II is the first game made by id under the 'Carmack' rule. Losing Romero and with no one able to stand up to Carmack, id became way too focused on the technical side of things at the expense of the game design/story/atmosphere. Agreed 100%, that's a concise way to explain what happened. Although I did very much enjoy Quake II back in its day. But much of that enjoyment was derived from being impressed with the game technically. Yeah I wasn't much of a fan of Quake III. As a single player experience, it wasn't enthralling. But the engine itself was used to power some really great releases. These would be my pick as the best that used id Tech 3: Star Trek: Voyager – Elite Force (2000) Heavy Metal: F.A.K.K.² (2000) Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (2002) Medal of Honor: Allied Assault (2002) Call of Duty (2003) Star Trek: Elite Force II (2003) And here's a game one might be surprised to learn utilized id Tech 3:
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 26, 2020 13:11:08 GMT -5
Dead Aim is one of the better random RE spinoffs to me. Very short, but I dug it. Interesting takes on Quake II here from Civvie. Quake II is a great game in my book, but I always thought it was inferior to the original Quake - and very different, too. Trent Reznor saying Quake II had 'no atmosphere' was brutal, but I see what he meant. You can tell Quake II is the first game made by id under the 'Carmack' rule. Losing Romero and with no one able to stand up to Carmack, id became way too focused on the technical side of things at the expense of the game design/story/atmosphere. Makes sense their next game was an arena shooter like Quake III. Luckily, other studios made memorable games using that engine. I mean, when I think of the 'Quake III engine' I don't even think of Quake III, but rather of games like Jedi Outcast. I'm probably on the same page as you. I like Quake II more than what Civvie was getting at, but I could easily agree with just about all of his issues or nitpicks he brought up. Quake 1-2 are still very fresh in my mind since I played them in 2016 when Doom 4/2016 dropped (which combo'd extremely well, since the current Doom's kind of feel like there's more Quake DNA in there now). That was a Quake 2 replay for me and the first time on PC, since I grew up with the PSX version haha. I had a blast going through it again in better form... I'd probably even take it over revisiting Half-Life 1 nowadays, since it's just simple dumb fun. I generally wouldn't want such an abrasively rockin'/metal OST like that either, but I wouldn't change a thing about it in this case and love that OST on its own too. Definitely some good workout jams I bet. Finally playing Quake 1 that time though, definitely left a way bigger mark and I don't think purely just because it was a new experience vs nostalgia with Quake 2. Quake 1 had four different tilesets, when Quake 2 is very gray and one note from start to finish. And the neogothic thing Quake 1 goes for is just far more unique to me. The game was way tougher too and ramped up even further with the two awesome expansions, which had different composers and their own flavors in that department. On the other hand I thought the Quake 2 expansions kind of sucked and were annoying, I wouldn't revisit those. They are timeless to me like some of id's great titles... but I get even more excited at the thought of revisiting Quake 1 over 2 nowadays.
It's funny since I tend to crave the "techbases" over Hell when it comes to Doom maps. But it might be the reverse here and I'd take Quake 1's gothic locales over the sci-fi bases of Quake 2... then again, Quake 1's bases were freaking cool and gritty too, I wish there were more maps of those haha.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 26, 2020 14:52:51 GMT -5
On another note, I stumbled upon a streamer playing Metroid Prime the other day and that game still invokes such cozy vibes.
I randomly started to wonder, does Miyamoto / Japan hate this game? Turns out Miyamoto was directly involved with it in ways and it's fascinating Nintendo let Retro do a Metroid game, since their studio beginnings were really shaky. Four random projects going on at once and a bunch of cancelled games before Prime. There's some interesting insight here with how Nintendo of Japan interacted with a young Western studio too. Miyamoto apparently wanted Ocarina of Time to be first person at some point and it sounds like he was one that pushed for this to be that perspective, when they debated about first and third person.
Thought this bit on Metriod Prime 2 was funny, I for one liked that MP2 was a harder game all around. But I've rarely met other fans of it sadly, I definitely prefer it to MP3.
(I think From Software games have helped course correct the hand holding issues they point out in the second part there)
Polygon has a much bigger article on this I'll need to read next:
I wonder if Retro still has a track record of mismanaging projects, since they often go several years in between releases or no updates. But hopefully Metroid is in good hands again and Prime 4 turns out awesome.
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Post by Ex on Aug 26, 2020 21:24:58 GMT -5
Turns out Miyamoto was directly involved with it in ways Miyamoto and Iwata both were hands on with the development/production of MP1. I think it shows with how well polished and balanced MP1 is. Nintendo were far more hands off with MP2, and that's evident as well. However for MP3, Iwata came back as the co- director of the game hence the reined-in difficulty. I can't speak for all western gamers, but getting lost in games doesn't bother me. I prefer strong exploration and finding my own way. For me, hovering waypoints are patronizing at best. Also the difficulty of MP2 was in no way an issue either. I mean, it's no Demon's Souls.
No, the real problem with MP2, was its ridiculous asinine hidden key hunting. That's why I quit it in disgust years ago. But we've had that discussion before a few times.
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Post by Sarge on Aug 26, 2020 21:50:27 GMT -5
Yeah, I hear folks talk about Metroid Prime 2's difficulty, but I didn't really have as much trouble with it as I did the first game. Maybe it was just coming in with the skills needed. I'd mostly forgotten about the key hunt, but even that didn't bother me that much, even if it could be considered nothing but padding. I remember I'd actually found several of the keys before said key hunt began, and I remember scouring the map to match up with the hints. It was almost an adventure game-style thing at that point. Basically, I was fine with it, but I totally get where it turned off others.
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Post by Ex on Aug 26, 2020 21:54:40 GMT -5
I plan to give MP2 another chance someday. Mainly because I just can't get myself to play MP3 until I clear MP2. And I bought a Wii back in 2011 primarily to play MP3. So that's how long that's been a thing.
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Post by Sarge on Aug 26, 2020 22:01:46 GMT -5
Do you have Metroid Prime Trilogy? That might be the best way to experience those games these days, as long as you can deal with the MP3-style Wii remote controls in the others. I thought it worked really well.
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Post by Ex on Aug 26, 2020 22:25:53 GMT -5
Do you have Metroid Prime Trilogy? Nope. I've just got MP2 on GC, and MP3 on Wii. I didn't have any issues with the controls of MP1 or MP2 on GC, so I'm fine with what I've got. It's quite possible on a revisit, I may end up liking MP2 a lot more this time around. Wouldn't be the first time a second chance attempt paid off.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 27, 2020 12:51:43 GMT -5
You always backup Miyamoto, Ex ... and I can see why in certain cases. I'd love to see a case or two where him backing off of a project or sequel was for the best sometime though. The man is a living legend, but he's got some turds under his belt too (Star Fox Zero more recently) and can be really wack with some of his old ways haha. MP3 was too dang linear and easy for my tastes, with more forced story that I can't remember at all. Something about the Federation/Good guys themselves were the creators of the Mother Brain(s). I remember 90% of the energy tanks were thrown at your face. It's still fun compared to most games, but I'd take the weirder experimental MP2 over it anyday. I won't exaggerate the difficulty of that one, you guys all know I love my tough games, but it's a step up compared to the other two in terms of puzzles/bosses and all I'd say, plus with only four main levels, they were impressively complex from what I recall. I liked Torvus and the high tech final area a lot, but the other two blended in a bit and were just kind of like generic caves/bases I think. I never recall the key hunt being an issue, Sarge makes me think maybe I just found a lot of them naturally... as I like to 100% Metroidvania's anyways. Isn't backtracking this genres middle name? Won't deny I had a few issues. The music was a monstrous downgrade but I want to say that's been an issue with the series post Metroid Prime 1. Still some good tunes here and there along with nice sci-fi vibes, but the OST's for the first half of the series are freaking classics. MP2 and on have been more forgettable. I also recall hating the ammo system with the beams. I don't think it was ever a serious issue, but since MP1 didn't bother with that, it was a weird change. I didn't love the direction of the story but it was still cooler than MP3's plot. MP1 just really captured that mysterious/adventurous lonely vibes like the earlier games, but I don't recall feeling that allure as much with MP2-MP3.
Only played MP2-MP3 once each, but I loved them. I own the Wii trilogy on disc and could replay it all that way. I keep holding out for some legit remasters but I'll probably keep waiting forever for that to never happen...
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Post by Ex on Aug 27, 2020 14:28:05 GMT -5
You always backup Miyamoto I do not always back up Shigeru Miyamoto.
Shiggy's made a few less than savvy decisions in his career, not all his self-directed games were great, and he's probably the #1 reason we haven't gotten an F-Zero sequel in the past 16 years. That said, Miyamoto does understand what makes games fun, and also what does not make games fun. He's very attuned to the entertainment aspect. I could certainly sense Miyamoto's influence in MP1, and his lack of influence in MP2. MP2 felt much more like a western developed FPS, rather than the western-eastern hybrid feel of MP1, if that makes sense. I understand you and Sarge think as such. But just to refresh your collective memories, there are 18 hidden keys in this game:
Personally I found all that key hunting to be gratuitous, blatantly obvious busy work. I didn't care for it at the time. Perhaps during a second chance play, it wouldn't bother me as much. Mainly because I'd already be expecting this nonsense going in. I agree with all these statements. Aside from the key hunt, sometimes the navigation in MP2 was a real pain in the ass. I don't mean knowing where to go, or how to get there, just that the getting there part was more convoluted and time consuming than it needed to be. I like recursive exploration that opens up shortcuts as you become more powerful (or better equipped). MP1 was far better at that than MP2.
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