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Post by Xeogred on Sept 11, 2021 20:50:01 GMT -5
Still hoping to someday try and 1CC Mushihimesama. lmao I watched the video and then attempted this very thing. (I failed) After playing a lot of Devil Engine earlier this year, when I went back to Mushi I'm pretty sure I got to stage 3 or 4 before my first death! So that seems pretty doable.
Devil Engine is insane dude. It's like if Techno Soft and Cave had a baby...
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Post by Sarge on Sept 11, 2021 23:58:00 GMT -5
I'm not even going to try to 1CC anything, but it will probably happen eventually. I already feel like I picked up some skills running through Gate of Thunder, Abadox, and R-Type III. The last two in particular really forced me to do the whole "learn your route" thing to see them through.
There were a couple of points in that video that I really appreciated:
- shmups aren't necessarily about reflexes - save states are a very valid way to practice tough spots
Sure, reflexes will bail you out in a bind, but it seems like excellent routing will get you through without having to bank on instant reactions. So ironically, shmups may end up easier to complete in my old age than still being able to take down Tyson in Punch-Out!!
You also run into a lot of elitists that say you're cheating with save states, but I view them as a way to shorten that learning curve. It's how I compressed my time with Battletoads - no sense continually playing through the earlier bits to get good at the problem areas. After that, I made that legit run, and it felt awesome.
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Post by Xeogred on Sept 12, 2021 8:18:53 GMT -5
Yeah the point he had against reflexes was interesting. I think that's partially what I get at with this genre being "meditative" once you pass some kind of barrier or get in a zone with a game. But that's still easier said than done, haha. Keeping calm nerves in this genre is a task. The ship placement was interesting too. He kind of suggests usually being 70% forward on the screen and then going backwards from bullets. I understand this, sometimes being in front of some of the action let's you skip a lot of it or control it better. But again, easier said than done! I do find myself "daring" to get more up front in shmups the more I play sometimes, more like 50% of the screen. So maybe he's onto something here. Some games like Mushihimesama grant you level select once you unlock them, so I see that as devs nodding to the idea of practicing specific parts to experiment and master. So yeah, no shame in save states with this genre in a way. And like he said, if you abuse them and then go around acting like you've bested some games or are a pro, you're only cheating yourself. I definitely recommend you check out some CAVE games Sarge . Those are the ones where I finally started to kind of "get" bullet hell shooters and enjoy them. Mainly Mushihimesama and DoDonPachi. I'm even at the point where I question what I like more between vertical and horizontal nowadays. I used to always say horizontal as one that played more console shmups than arcade. But that's changing over the years, vertical is awesome and does feel more tactical in a way somehow. And then for something newer one day I dare one to check out Devil Engine, good lord I can still only clear it with like 10 continues... but even then it still feels like a triumph.
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Sept 12, 2021 10:53:46 GMT -5
Yeah Cave is great. I still maintain that DeathSmiles is the best (and "easiest") of their games. I've also played bunches of Mushihimesama (PC, plus the V1.5 DLC -- and I never download DLC!), Mushihimesama Futari Ver 1.5 (360), DoDonPachi Resurrection (360), and Akai Katana (360).
There are a couple of Xbox Live downloadable ones I own but haven't tried yet -- DeathSmiles II X and Guwange. Anyone have any thoughts on those?
I'll never be a 1CC'er or leaderboard person, but I do enjoy improving on my own scores.
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Post by Xeogred on Sept 12, 2021 12:25:47 GMT -5
I just wish CAVE would be more consistent with some of their newer ports and releases. I think Mushihimesama Futari is still tied down to the 360 mainly. And I have an imported copy that plays just fine, but getting that on Steam or the Switch would be more ideal now. There's only DonDonPachi Resurrection on 360/PC too. But I think I liked one of the other DonDon games more, maybe the second (official) or third game. The difficulty varies between these a lot and they have more bullet colors than Mushihimesama, so just know that in advance.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 16, 2021 13:34:10 GMT -5
Worth a read, even if you have to translate the tweets. Basically, it's a strong case for Konami reverse-engineering SMB3 to the point that pretty much all of Tiny Toon Adventures' physics are directly cribbed from SMB3.
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Post by toei on Sept 16, 2021 14:17:00 GMT -5
His other thread about Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden seems like nonsense to me. It's as if he doesn't know that these games are part of a whole genre, and all the elements he points to as similar are mostly elements of that genre as a whole. The only thing Ninja Gaiden probably took from CV specifically is the damn candles vs lamps or whatever they are in NG. The candles are the worst part of Castlevania.
The Tiny Toon vs SMB3 is more interesting. Basically, Tiny perfectly reproduces several SMB3 mechanics, down to the frames and pixels. He wonders how they could have gotten access to those numbers, and suggests reverse engineering.
I will just point out that Yuji Naka once programmed a NES emulator for the Mega Drive for his personal use. So dumping the ROM and getting that info straight from the code may have been possible, even at the time. I don't know, though.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 16, 2021 14:26:42 GMT -5
I'll have to check out that other thread, but the Tiny Toon one was very compelling. I tend to agree that while Ninja Gaiden clearly took elements from Castlevania, it plays so differently in practice that I never even associated the two in my mind for years.
I don't know where I read it, but I'm pretty sure the team acknowledged some inspiration from Castlevania, but their emphasis was much more on speed and "flow".
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Post by Ex on Sept 16, 2021 21:46:58 GMT -5
I don't know about Konami literally copying SMB3's code. Weren't most NES ROMs encrypted? I find it hard to imagine Nintendo would have left the code for SMB3 unencrypted. I know ROMhackers use special tools to decrypt ROMs, but their tools are homemade. I can see 1991 Konami painstakingly mimicking SMB3's physics though.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 16, 2021 22:20:47 GMT -5
Definitely not encrypted, although many people would have a tough time working through a disassembly of the game's code. That the values are almost spot on exact in every circumstance tells me they wanted that feel for their platformer, and they did whatever they could to make sure it happened. Also, a good article about forums and how they're dying and shouldn't be. kotaku.com/please-stop-closing-forums-and-moving-people-to-discord-1847684851
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