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Post by bonesnapdeez on Aug 30, 2018 18:05:40 GMT -5
Can't believe I didn't mention Chrono Trigger earlier. Great story.
I especially love how the sidequests towards the end of the game really expand upon each character's story. This is from an era where most sidequests were "beat this other boss" or "get the best sword" or whatever.
The time travelling aspect was also handled very well. I love how the 12,000 B.C. era is a thriving civilization (that eventually falls). A total shock first time playing the game.
What I like even more is how the developers included two eras that were "only" 400 years apart. They're superficially similar, and it's pretty incredible to see the subtle little changes made to 1000 A.D. based on your actions in 600.
And while Lavos is kind of the typical nebulous ultimate evil bad guy, what's interesting is the various reactions to him(?) throughout the game. He's feared in certain eras, revered in others. Lots and lore and hype about the very existence of such an entity.
I've just scratched the surface. Literally everything about that game is good.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 30, 2018 18:20:07 GMT -5
Finally nullPointer ... someone else here to back me up on FF4 and Secret of Mana! FF4 has been the ultimate grower on me every time I've replayed it across its various versions or ports, it's a blissful experience whenever I revisit it. And Secret of Mana has one of the simplest plots of them all but the atmosphere is hardly rivaled, topped off with quite possibly my favorite SNES JRPG OST of all time. I like the sequel Seiken Densetsu 3 even more in ways, my favorite ARPG system of all time ( toei hates it though), but I still tend to think SoM has a more ethereal magic to it. I've always loved to say Secret of Mana feels like opening up some ancient colorful children's story book and being teleported into it. Long story short, I've kind of long placed FF4 and Secret of Mana on the same level as FF6 and Chrono Trigger personally. Maybe not for stories here specifically for this thread but besides that... I love all these games about equally and sometimes might even put FF4 or SoM on top. Doesn't get much better. As always, it pains me a bit when people talk about Breath of Fire 1-3. That's so easy to find anywhere and everywhere out there. But barely anyone got around to 4 for some weird reason, buried amongst the other PSX JRPG's or something. Frankly, I didn't like Breath of Fire 1-3 enough to finish any of them, but 4 blew me away. Just want to throw that out there again for some contrast. Above and beyond the best JRPG Capcom ever did in my book. Sarge : You're not wrong you don't play Tales for stories but they're like offensively bad, it hurts after awhile and doesn't help haha... I've played: Phantasia, Destiny, Destiny 2 (US/PSX), Symphonia, and Graces F. Finished: 0. Always sounds like Xenosaga maybe got too Biblical for Sarge's tastes, heh. But I love that sort of thing in sci-fi. Also toei not pointing fingers at you at all, but I've kind of decided that's such a lazy argument against Xenogears... I mean to be fair I played it with friends before the internet and all, we joked about how text heavy it is. But the reality is it's a huge well paced game for the first 50 some hours worth, so I've just never seen how the novelized second disc "ruins" anything. It's amazing the game told what it could when they clearly ran out of time, but it certainly is one of the biggest "what if's" in gaming for me, if it were completed it would just be mindblowing and even harder to rival for me. I go back and forth between which I love more on this or Xenosaga, it's all overly ambitious though. But I love how the scale of Xenosaga even dwarfs Xenogears, the second disc of Xenosaga 3 is like the most epic grand finale of a JRPG saga I've ever played... every single character has a final boss rivalry of their own that comes to a conclusion, it was straight up exhausting in its epicness, in a great way. Nothing else quite like it. Now I still love the Xenoblade's and will probably continue to love everything Tetsuya Takahashi touches but it is a bit disappointing his past ambitions failed financially and now the Blade stories are simpler shounen tales, still with great execution and storytelling... but I just hope he someday gets back to doing something crazier and darker like Xenogears/Xenosaga. For FF's, I think I'd say FF4 and FF6 are the best to me story wise. FF7 seems the messiest but I still love it, along with FF5, FF8, and FF10 which I'd rate highly too story/character wise.
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Post by nullPointer on Aug 30, 2018 18:22:53 GMT -5
For me the starting point in Breath of Fire 2, that you / Ryu go out to play as a child and come back to find none of the villagers know who you are anymore, is exactly that; a poignant small moment. I don't see how the story is a re-tread at all. It's the only RPG to really do an in-depth, "evil religion" story well. I know that's not popular among certain people, but bear in mind that the religion depicted isn't actually Christianity, and the Evil God depicted isn't anymore the Christian God than it is the Devil or the anti-christ. There was a lot of media attention given to cult like Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, culminating with their terrorist attack on the Tokyo Subway in 1995. I think cults like that also had a lot to do with the depiction of evil cults and religious sects in Japanese RPGs & entertainment. I definitely agree with your points here! Regarding my earlier 'retread' comment, it's admittedly been quite a while since I played these games. My (possibly shoddy) recollection was that the first game also had a bit of an antagonistic approach to organized religion insofar as it was a monotheistic(?) Goddess who got the world into the mess it was in, and furthermore who turned out to be the primary villain of the piece. My memory of these details is anything but concrete though! Having said that I definitely do count both of these games as having effective storytelling. For FF's, I think I'd say FF4 and FF6 are the best to me story wise. FF7 seems the messiest but I still love it, along with FF5, FF8, and FF10 which I'd rate highly too story/character wise. I'd completely agree with you on this! One of the things I really like about FFIV is how the setup is so drastically different from many of the other FF titles. No angsty teens, no generic 'roaming adventurer' tropes, no amnesia. No, instead you start as a badass 'special ops' soldier and what's more you're not even necessarily fighting on the side of the 'morally righteous' (initially). I was hooked from the start. I'm also one of those 'generic sorts' who holds FFVI to be one of the gold standards by which JRPG storytelling should be judged. I also have a real fondness for all the mainline 32-bit FF games. This is undoubtedly where FF storytelling really started going off-the-rails bonkers, but they all have some truly amazing high points. FFX is such an unusual case for me. I love the characters in that game (Vivi is hands down one of my favorite characters in all of gaming); I have no idea what's going on with the story. To be fair though, I've never fully finished that one. I really need to fix that.
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Post by chibby on Aug 30, 2018 18:27:02 GMT -5
I am going to commit the sin that is commenting without voting. The simple reason here is that I have very limited experience with JRPGs. I think the first RPG (of any stripe) I ever played was Shining Force followed shortly by Kotor. I've probably played more WRPG's than JRPG's, not by some particular choice, just by happenstance. Dragon Quest: I've never played any Dragon Quest titles in my life. Final Fantasy: I've made this joke before, but does Kingdom Hearts count? Otherwise, I've never finished an FF title. I played some of VII and didn't hate it. I played a decent bit of VI and liked it okay, but I got kind of pulled away and then wasn't able to get my bearings again. Maybe I'll go back to it after Earthbound. Anyway my frustrations with VI have nothing to do with the plot which does seem, arguably, strong. Mother: I've only played Earthbound (I'm at the swamp). If I were to vote today this would get my vote, but that seems premature given how little I've played of the other series here (to say nothing of having not even finished it yet, maybe I'll decide I hate it before it's over). Phantasy Star: Been meaning to give these another try. In theory they seem like something I would very much like. Had either 2 or 4 on one of the Sega Smash Packs, but younger me thought the lack of character sprites was lame, and got bogged down in one of the puzzle and decided to play more Comix Zone instead. I don't regret that decision, but I'm eyeballing these sometime soonish. Shadow Hearts: It seems like someone here likes these an awful lot or something I've never played one though. Shin Megami Tensei: Never played one of these either. Suikoden: No exposure. Tales of _______: Symphonia, which might have been the first Post 2000 JRPG's I ever played, is the only Tales game I've ever played at all. In fact, it might be among the first JRPG's I've ever played to completion. I really enjoyed it, but I think I was sort of mystified by how different it was from all the WRPG's I'd played. Not sure how it would stand up if I went back to it, but I have fond memories and feel no shame in looking up strategy guides to get Sheena to love me. We were meant for each other. The Legend of Heroes (AKA Trails of): Not only is this a series I've never touched, I feel like it, on this list, is the one I've heard the least about. Ys: Seems like bonesnapdeez should be the Professor of Mother now that he's voted against Ys in favor of Mother. Never played one. Xeno: Never played one of these either, but the images I've seen have always allured me. I play a lot of Shulk in modern smash bros, does that count? I wouldn't propose that we add Fire Emblem to this list because their stories are pretty bare boned, but I did play one once and had a fine time with it, for whatever that's worth. I am also Team Chrono Trigger in the legendary CT vs. FFVI debate that went on here some time ago (calling it a legendary debate is an overstatement of an absurdly high order), though maybe I should finish FFVI before I start taking sides. Anyway, what I'm learning here is that I have a LOT of JRPG catching up to do. More than I think I'll ever probably get to.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 30, 2018 19:52:31 GMT -5
For FF's, I think I'd say FF4 and FF6 are the best to me story wise. FF7 seems the messiest but I still love it, along with FF5, FF8, and FF10 which I'd rate highly too story/character wise. I'd completely agree with you on this! One of the things I really like about FFIV is how the setup is so drastically different from many of the other FF titles. No angsty teens, no generic 'roaming adventurer' tropes, no amnesia. No, instead you start as a badass 'special ops' soldier and what's more you're not even necessarily fighting on the side of the 'morally righteous' (initially). I was hooked from the start. I'm also one of those 'generic sorts' who holds FFVI to be one of the gold standards by which JRPG storytelling should be judged. I also have a real fondness for all the mainline 32-bit FF games. This is undoubtedly where FF storytelling really started going off-the-rails bonkers, but they all have some truly amazing high points. FFX is such an unusual case for me. I love the characters in that game (Vivi is hands down one of my favorite characters in all of gaming); I have no idea what's going on with the story. To be fair though, I've never fully finished that one. I really need to fix that. Yup, I've already expressed to others here being a bit surprised there aren't more FF4 fans around these parts... kind of thought it'd be up their alleys. I also like Kain a lot, for all his faults hehe. And I still think FF4 did the "surprise" final boss the best, because Zeromus is such a badass and cool concept. Not to mention where FF4 goes in later parts is still just mindblowing to me. Best final dungeon in the series, best boss theme, my love just stacks up for it in so many areas. Oh! And the strange 5 party limit makes it a bit unique too.
We covered this in older discussions before you joined I think, but I have a long weird hate/love relationship with FFX. I played it until the end back when it originally released but hated a lot about it coming out of the PSX games. Then I just watched a friend beat the final boss and considered it finished for me too. Well I finally gave it another whirl with the PS3 HD release a few years ago and ended up being shocked by how much I loved everything a second time around. I was over the emo teen angst phase I guess haha, so a second time through I didn't mind how much of a goofball Tidus was compared to like Cloud/Squall. The story is still kind of vague and weird but like everything Sakaguchi seems to touch, I liked how it focused a lot on life and death. Seymour is still pretty lame but all around, I had a blast.
Even when I first played FFX though I never denied that the gameplay and music are some of the best in the genre though and STILL are! The HD release includes the International version options, letting you play with a full unlocked sphere grid. So that was interesting... in the late game I ended up teaching Yuna a bunch of black magic and she was incredible.
FF9 is the only one I've never really loved. Nothing about the characters outside of Beatrix or the story stands out to me years later. Gorgeous game, though.
FF8 is the weirdest one by miles I couldn't begin to describe if I tried... but I remember liking the characters and world a lot. This is one I've tried to replay three times or so over the years and always burn out, because of the card drawing and junction systems. Gets me a bit OCD and gets boring after awhile haha. Someday I'll try to just ignore those elements, since otherwise I think I still look back on FF8 fondly since I did 100% on it way back in the day.
Now since we're talking FF's...
The Lost PSX Final Fantasy:
Lost Odyssey easily fits this thread for me. It's classic Sakaguchi again focusing a lot on life and death haha. This time with immortal characters though and I love how the game hammers away at that being a curse rather than a blessing. Incredible game from top to bottom, I'd put it on the same level as FFX or so and maybe above it in some ways.
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Post by toei on Aug 30, 2018 19:58:06 GMT -5
Xeogred Dude I said Xenogears was great I didn't mind the final disc at all, to me the game was very close to a 10 despite a few really tedious dungeons (there aren't that many, but then they seem to try and compensate for that by making them extra long, like those damn sewers). It's one of the last games I remember playing where I woke up excited every morning that I could play it some more. People on the Internet act like the hurried conclusion is a deal breaker, but it's really not. It is too bad they couldn't fully realize his vision, though. Re: Chrono, I'd say the story isn't the most mind-blowing in concept, but it's flawlessly executed, like the rest of the game. It's great at making you care for the characters, as well. Something like Robo's bullying backstory could have come off as contrived and boring, but it didn't (though there's something pretty funny about the idea of robots bullying each other in the first place). Re: Breath of Fire, as I recall the first game's story was a lot less developed. I love the 3rd game, but it's also more due to small moments and the characters than the overarching plot, which I barely remember anything about. But I gotta @ Xeogred again; I think BoFIV is the worst in the core series (by which I mean Dragon Quarter don't count). I like the concept of switching between the two sides of the story - check out Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits, btw, for a game that does that extremely well - but it's got the most tedious dungeons, the isometric view was pushed to such an extreme that you frequently couldn't see anything, and the characters were the least likeable except the bad guy. Also, FFIV has some abysmal writing. The back-and-forth with Kain being mind-controlled, than snapping to normal, then either being mind-controlled again or just a dirty traitor, is the single most tedious thing ever. There is nothing worse than mind-control nonsense in fiction, and the goddamn "we're you're friends! You have to fight it!" scenes that inevitably ensue. If I were elected President of Writing tomorrow, my first act would be to outlaw any future instance of this. To be fair, it's got some good, too. Going to the moon is inherently cool, and the beginning is nice, up until they ruin it by making Cecil a Paladin. You should have remained a Black Knight. I like most of the characters. FF6 is way better, though. And Secret of Mana... it's okay, but it's got a very barebones story.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 30, 2018 20:04:43 GMT -5
Oh I know, sorry if it sounded like I was throwing shade at you. I just had to rant about the usual consensus I see online about it. Like you said here: Hope that clears it up.
Gotta just disagree with you on BoF4 and FF4 though.
Also, I guess this thread is ultimately about "series" as a whole maybe but some of us have been throwing out some single installments. Either way I'd say any fan of the FF series, especially the PSX era, should definitely check out Lost Odyssey. It's truly Final Fantasy in everything but name.
Chrono as a whole between Trigger and Cross could be a stretch. Now Cross was my first PSX JRPG I bought actually and because it was short with a bunch of varied paths and characters, I replayed the heck out of it. But I honestly don't know if I could say a single thing about the story haha.
I think I've always wished Chrono had dialogue in Trigger though. I don't mind the silent protagonist, I mean I'm probably one of the biggest Zelda fans here, but that said when it comes to CT vs FF6... I think that's one reason why I always lean towards FF6, since everyone is their own avatar and has personality. (but now that I'm learning more about Dragon Quest, I can see how Yuji Horii shaped a lot of Chrono Trigger).
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Post by nullPointer on Aug 30, 2018 20:27:21 GMT -5
We covered this in older discussions before you joined I think, but I have a long weird hate/love relationship with FFX. I played it until the end back when it originally released but hated a lot about it coming out of the PSX games. Then I just watched a friend beat the final boss and considered it finished for me too. Well I finally gave it another whirl with the PS3 HD release a few years ago and ended up being shocked by how much I loved everything a second time around. I was over the emo teen angst phase I guess haha, so a second time through I didn't mind how much of a goofball Tidus was compared to like Cloud/Squall. The story is still kind of vague and weird but like everything Sakaguchi seems to touch, I liked how it focused a lot on life and death. Seymour is still pretty lame but all around, I had a blast.
Even when I first played FFX though I never denied that the gameplay and music are some of the best in the genre though and STILL are! The HD release includes the International version options, letting you play with a full unlocked sphere grid. So that was interesting... in the late game I ended up teaching Yuna a bunch of black magic and she was incredible. FF9 is the only one I've never really loved. Nothing about the characters outside of Beatrix or the story stands out to me years later. Gorgeous game, though. FF8 is the weirdest one by miles I couldn't begin to describe if I tried... but I remember liking the characters and world a lot. This is one I've tried to replay three times or so over the years and always burn out, because of the card drawing and junction systems. Gets me a bit OCD and gets boring after awhile haha. Someday I'll try to just ignore those elements, since otherwise I think I still look back on FF8 fondly since I did 100% on it way back in the day. I just realized in my previous post I typed FFX when I meant FFIX! Not so much due to confusion on my part as a stupid fat fingering mistake! Any hoo, yeah FFIX has some of my favorite of all FF characters and Vivi in particular. But the story is utterly forgettable to the point of being non-existent. I've never actually played FFX (or anything beyond)! I also have a real soft spot for FFVIII, which is the red headed step child of the 32 bit series that most folks seem to dismiss offhandedly. I actually quite liked it. The trading card game (Triple Triad) is stronger than the one in FFIX (Tetra Master) IMO, and I thought it was kind of of a brilliant twist to add the (stupidly overpowered in many cases) fighting game style inputs as part of the combat mechanics. Also, FFIV has some abysmal writing. But c'mon dude ... you have to admit this is some God-level dialog right here.
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Post by Xeogred on Aug 30, 2018 20:41:23 GMT -5
I just realized in my previous post I typed FFX when I meant FFIX! Not so much due to confusion on my part as a stupid fat fingering mistake! Any hoo, yeah FFIX has some of my favorite of all FF characters and Vivi in particular. But the story is utterly forgettable to the point of being non-existent. I've never actually played FFX (or anything beyond)! I also have a real soft spot for FFVIII, which is the red headed step child of the 32 bit series that most folks seem to dismiss offhandedly. I actually quite liked it. The trading card game (Triple Triad) is stronger than the one in FFIX (Tetra Master) IMO, and I thought it was kind of of a brilliant twist to add the (stupidly overpowered in many cases) fighting game style inputs as part of the combat mechanics. Oooff, a legendary typo for a simple mistake haha.
Well you might dig FFX if you get around to it sometime. Definitely some of Uematsu's best music and the combat system is perfection, love the Sphere Grid too.
I think I agree on Triple Triad > Tetra Master.
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Post by chibby on Aug 30, 2018 21:00:35 GMT -5
Lost Odyssey easily fits this thread for me. It's classic Sakaguchi again focusing a lot on life and death haha. This time with immortal characters though and I love how the game hammers away at that being a curse rather than a blessing. Incredible game from top to bottom, I'd put it on the same level as FFX or so and maybe above it in some ways.
Improbably, this is one that I have played. I more than played it, I got all the secret weapons and did all the extra needless bullshit too. Great game. A little wonky here and there writing/dialogue wise, but overall a good experience.
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