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Post by dunpeal2064 on Feb 21, 2019 3:22:54 GMT -5
Whip Rush seemed only slightly above par to me at first, and it may just be that, but I found after digging around in the dirt for more shmups to play, that one ended up standing out once the obvious gems were rinsed. Surprisingly tight design and feel, and it gets real good later on. Like you said, though, no gimmicks to make it stand especially out, but I thought it did the essentials well.
I hadn't noticed you don't like space/military shooters. I'm not sure if mecha are lumped in to that category as well, but in case they aren't: Choujikuu Yousai Macross: Scrambled Valkyrie on the SFC is absolutely stellar, probably my favorite shooter on Nintendo's 16-bits. Multiple characters, all with form-changing mechs, and the ability to steal most any enemy to join your side as an option, all wrapped up in a tight, varied side-scroller that looks stellar. Highly recommend.
Bio-Hazard Battle is superb too, as Ex said. I took it for a bit of a budget, standard shooter ala Arrow Flash when I first found it, but its definitely a notch above that. Very cool themes and really solid gameplay. And of course, if that style suites you, the Darius series (2, Gaiden, and G are my favs) should please as well.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 21, 2019 12:45:14 GMT -5
It makes me very happy that we have shmup fans here, especially since I'm not quite as well-versed in the genre.
I tend to not enjoy super-tough shooters as much, on account of not being all that good at them. I don't know why I'm willing to put the work in on platformers and not so much shmups, but that's the way it goes. For me, it ends up being if a game feels fair, even if it is tough. I can deal with challenge so long as it doesn't feel cheap... and that's why I typically can't get into the Gradius games. Lose your power-ups, and it feels like you're screwed the rest of the way. They are overly punitive. That's probably why I like Life Force a bit better; it is a touch easier, and feels pretty fair overall.
But it strikes me that one of my biggest gripes might be games where grazing the walls kills you. Games that do that feel really claustrophobic, and that might be the other reason Gradius and its ilk bug me.
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Post by toei on Feb 21, 2019 15:32:53 GMT -5
dunpeal2064 You were right about Whip Rush. It may look generic, but you can't argue with its playability and level design. The helper pods might not be super original, but the level of control you have over them is nice; I didn't realize you could rotate them before, so I thought Level 3 was impossible. Sending them to attack where your ship can't reach while minding your front is fun. The bosses are growing on me, too; each of them is like a clever little puzzle that's fun to figure out. I made it to Level 5 on my last attempt; I figure the game probably has 6 or 7, so I'm sticking with it. There are some tricky parts, but I'd say the difficulty is reasonable, in part because special weapons also act as a shield, letting you take an extra hit before you die. It may just end up being the first space shooter I ever beat. Prior to starting this thread, the only shooters I've beaten are: Elemental Master - Beat it last summer during our Summer Challenge. It was recommended to me as part of the "genres you don't play" category. Beyond the human character and fantasy setting, what appealed to me gameplay-wise was that you had separate buttons to fire ahead and behind you, and that you gained permanent upgrades, such as new weapons, as you advanced, which made it feel more like an adventure, and felt fairer than the "get hit once, lose everything" mentality of a lot of shmups. The game is considered easy, but I had no substantial experience with the genre, so it still took me a few days to beat it. Still the best shmup I've played through so far. Trouble Shooter - Last year as well, I thought this was decent, but it had some unfortunate dead air in its level design that made it a bit dull in spots. Took me a while to get used to minding only the one character that has a hitbox. The sequel looks much improved, though, and I plan to play it. Then, during our pre-NES month (in January), I played through a full loop of the Colecovision port of Konami's Super Cobra, the sequel to their landmark shooter Scramble. It doesn't technically end, so I don't really count it, but it does have separate levels. I thought it was a neat old game, with the focus on both shooting enemies and zigzagging through passageways and around obstacles, while keeping your fuel up by bombing reservoirs. Finally, I just beat three shmups in a row in the last few weeks, which put me in the mood to really start exploring the genre. The Genesis port of Insector X was hard, and definitely too oriented towards memorization due to its huge character sprite and hitbox, but it has its pluses, including the general feel, aesthetic and atmosphere. Sylphia was decent and quite pretty, but too easy even for me. I liked the water weapon, though. Aleste Gaiden added some basic platforming and had a cool post-apocalyptic setting, plus your character wore a robotic ninja suit. Difficulty was a bit higher than Sylphia's, but still relatively easy. I liked it. - Sarge I can relate to that. Side-scrollers / action platformers have been my favorite action genre for years now, so it's easier for me to get into one or work past its difficulty, unless it's just blatantly trolling (ie Ninja Gaiden NES, which I still finished, but never want to play again). I also have a problem with losing all my power-ups when I die, which is much more frequent in shmups. That said, a lot of games that have that element are pretty generous with power-ups, so even if you die, you get reasonable opportunities to build yourself up again. That's a compromise I can work with.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 21, 2019 16:04:48 GMT -5
Heh, I still play Ninja Gaiden every so often, but I think it's because the levels are pretty much seared into my brain now. The one I revisit the least is Ninja Gaiden II, which is also ironically the most fair of the three NES games.
If you haven't tried it, you really should give the Japanese version of Ninja Gaiden III a go. It was built to be a lot more accessible.
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Post by Xeogred on Feb 21, 2019 20:05:13 GMT -5
Elemental Master - Beat it last summer during our Summer Challenge. It was recommended to me as part of the "genres you don't play" category. Beyond the human character and fantasy setting, what appealed to me gameplay-wise was that you had separate buttons to fire ahead and behind you, and that you gained permanent upgrades, such as new weapons, as you advanced, which made it feel more like an adventure, and felt fairer than the "get hit once, lose everything" mentality of a lot of shmups. The game is considered easy, but I had no substantial experience with the genre, so it still took me a few days to beat it. Still the best shmup I've played through so far. I think you'll like Thunder Force 4 then, even if you don't prefer the sci-fi aesthetic of the genre. Straight up my favorite console shmup. Techno-Soft were killer on the Genesis.
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Post by anayo on Feb 22, 2019 5:24:48 GMT -5
Elemental Master - Beat it last summer during our Summer Challenge. It was recommended to me as part of the "genres you don't play" category. Beyond the human character and fantasy setting, what appealed to me gameplay-wise was that you had separate buttons to fire ahead and behind you, and that you gained permanent upgrades, such as new weapons, as you advanced, which made it feel more like an adventure, and felt fairer than the "get hit once, lose everything" mentality of a lot of shmups. The game is considered easy, but I had no substantial experience with the genre, so it still took me a few days to beat it. Still the best shmup I've played through so far. I think you'll like Thunder Force 4 then, even if you don't prefer the sci-fi aesthetic of the genre. Straight up my favorite console shmup. Techno-Soft were killer on the Genesis. Thunder Force 4 is a masterpiece.
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Post by dunpeal2064 on Feb 22, 2019 6:54:41 GMT -5
I also dig Thunder Force IV, but my personal favorite Tecnosoft shooter is Hyper Duel on the Saturn. Its also a mecha shooter instead of a space ship one, so just in case the ship-shootin of TF is a no-go, you can still get a killer Tecnosoft experience there. The Saturn port features the original arcade game (Nearly a perfect port), and the (imo much improved) Saturn-exclusive mode, which fixes some of the oddities of the original, and adds/changes color to great effect, making the game's visuals just better overall. Soundtrack is... well, its tecnosoft, OSTs are probably their strongest suit.
If you like the walking-man shooter style, Guwange is also quite good (Its Cave, so of course it is). Its an arcade game so its notably more brutal than Elemental Master, but if you pick up the 360 port (Also playable on the xbone), its "Blue Label" and "360" modes, while still tense, are much more designed for a console experience. The 360 mode in particular is really neat, since the game is based on your character controlling a shikigami, and this mode lets you do so with the analogue sticks, similar to Robotron/Geometry Wars. Visuals are stunning, really sweet bosses like a giant Cat-Tarantula, and a cool traditional Japanese theme.
If you really want a nice, laid back, permanent powerup progression, non-ship shooter, Lords of Thunder is probably a safe bet. You'll likely clear it in a day or two (Or an hour or two if you play the Sega CD version).
And for a similar ride on the Genesis (In case you want to stick to the 16-bits), Twinkle Tale is quite fun, not too tough, and no space or ships to be found.
*I've probably recommended some/all of these in the past, and you may have already talked about/played them, my memory isn't the best so forgive me if thats the case xD
Edit: I think the comparison of fairness/difficulty between challenging platformers and shmups is interesting. I know both get a lot of flack from the general public, but it does seem like something like Super Meat Boy or Cuphead, while known to be challenging, are usually considered fair, while bullet hell games, and shmups in general, are often called "quarter-munchers", despite it being known that the games are perfectly beatable. It kinda makes sense, though. I assume most people grew up platforming, and are maybe newer to shooters. If Meat Boy was my first platformer, and I had to get used to walk/run swapping, momentum, etc, AND deal with the high difficulty, I might call it unfair. Considering Bullet Hells were made for people that were already getting too good at shmups (Gradius II, despite being good, was a huge flop, because the Japanese audience for it cleared it too fast after being so accustomed to the genre), and I think for those players bullet hells probably feel similarly fair, assuming they are designed well. I'm sure each genre has its stinkers (I Wanna Be the Guy is probably more "unfair" than any bullet hell I've played.), but I think most games in general are above board when it comes to fairness. Just a matter of whether or not the game is worth the challenge (And to some extent, whether the player believes they are capable of beating the game, which is where the games being called unfair or "quater-munchers" can actually harm them, since players may see a wall of bullets and just think its actually not doable, rather than taking it in similar stride to a room full of buzzsaws and crazy jumps in Meat Boy)
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Post by anayo on Feb 22, 2019 7:01:18 GMT -5
I also dig Thunder Force IV, but my personal favorite Tecnosoft shooter is Hyper Duel on the Saturn. Its also a mecha shooter instead of a space ship one, so just in case the ship-shootin of TF is a no-go, you can still get a killer Tecnosoft experience there. The Saturn port features the original arcade game (Nearly a perfect port), and the (imo much improved) Saturn-exclusive mode, which fixes some of the oddities of the original, and adds/changes color to great effect, making the game's visuals just better overall. Soundtrack is... well, its tecnosoft, OSTs are probably their strongest suit. I'll keep your endorsement in mind, since I have access to that game and haven't tried it yet. Last time I took my Saturn for a spin I beat Soukyugurentai, which was cool and worth playing (although not as cool as TF IV or Lords of Thunder). After that I moved onto Layer Section II. It wasn't good enough to keep me coming back and my interest waned. This is still my personal #1 favorite shmup of all time. Twinkle Tale stood out as one of the best Genesis games I played last year. I give it all the stars.
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Post by Xeogred on Feb 22, 2019 18:01:35 GMT -5
I think you'll like Thunder Force 4 then, even if you don't prefer the sci-fi aesthetic of the genre. Straight up my favorite console shmup. Techno-Soft were killer on the Genesis. Thunder Force 4 is a masterpiece. Top 5 Genesis for me and my favorite Genesis OST next to Shinobi III.
I've also played Hyper Duel and it rules. In many ways it feels like a better Thunder Force 5 than the actual one, if you're more into sprites and all like myself. The only knock on Hyper Duel I have is that it's insanely easy. But so is Thunder Force III and some other Techno-Soft games, that doesn't ruin them from being awesomely fun though. I have two modded Saturn's and must have played that version of Hyper Duel at some point... but I forgot about those exclusive differences, interesting.
Even weirder, the Saturn has Thunder Force "Gold" 1-2, two collections.
This port of 4 has far less lag but it almost doesn't feel right and gets way harder because of that, haha. Kind of neat to check out for the diehards though.
And Thunder Force AC is the best version of 3 / Spirits. Highly recommended and this one is easy to emulate via arcade if you want.
Kind of a bummer these collections still don't include the original Thunder Force though.
I really need to check out Thunder Force VI someday... a barely legal PS2 release! 2008.
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Post by toei on Feb 22, 2019 18:25:02 GMT -5
I was already aware of most of those recommendations, but I'm keeping the rest in mind. I don't feel ready to tackle bullet hells yet, but when that happens, Guwange will be one of the first I try.
I didn't have a lot of time to play Whip Rush today (for some reason, I keep forgetting the title, even though I like the game). Made it to the Level 5... midboss, I'm guessing, unless it's the actual boss. Seems big and dangerous enough to be. That level is hilariously brutal at first, but I was starting to get the hang of it during that session.
This ties in to the discussion about platformer difficulty VS. shmups; part of the difference is that hard shooters are typically much more visually intimidating than any other genre. The central conceit of bullet hell shmups, for instance, is that your hitbox is typically very small, often smaller than your sprite; so a giant sea of bullets taking up the majority of the screen might seem completely insane, but depending on the pattern, might not actually be that difficult to overcome. With a tough old-school side-scroller, like, say, Revenge of Shinobi, there's nothing like that, or even like Whip Rush's 5th level, where you can just get overwhelmed by everything that's going and get discouraged. Relatively recent and niche games like Super Meat Boy are a little scarier, but even then, most side-scrollers don't have automatic-scrolling, so at least you can take your time. There are moments when I play shmups where I feel like I'm performing surgery - that's how precise and focused I have to be (in Whip Rush, this happens when navigating narrow passages while trying not to crash your ship). Again, experiences like that in other genres have been much rarer for me. Shooters also tend to be shorter than most genres, but they compensate by being more concentrated; they're almost all action from beginning to end, so they demand a different level of focus.
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