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Post by Sarge on Jan 18, 2023 1:03:08 GMT -5
I backed up my save just in case I want to do more, but Dark Souls is done. The rest of the Bed of Chaos battle was easy (got lucky, he almost swiped me into the pit), and after doing a little bit of upgrading (swapped to Silver Knight Shield, which was an improvement over the Bloodshield across the board), went and fought Gwyn. I should have beaten him the first time, but I fumbled with my items (didn't have it on Estus Flask) and managed to get killed in the process. Whoops. This is after I had him down almost 3/4. No biggie, came back and while he wasn't quite as accommodating this time, he still fell quite quickly. Absolute cake compared to the Artorias fight, which I suppose makes sense.
I'll probably have more to say about the game tomorrow, and I've been waffling about what to score it for a while now. I think when I started I'd have given it a 7.5, but I'm definitely in 8+ territory now, just not sure if it's going to be an 8 or 8.5/10. I will say one thing, it definitely managed to keep me coming back, and I can "feel" how the game expects to be played now. I suspect I will appreciate the sequels and Elden Ring a lot more now that this one is done. And regardless of what it gets rated in the end, I'm very glad to have finally played through it.
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Post by Ex on Jan 18, 2023 8:53:14 GMT -5
I'm very glad to have finally played through it. What was your final clear time? I'm glad my rec to you was a win for you. Dark Souls is both historically significant, and also an excellent game in its own right. I'd easily put it in the top 10 games of the seventh generation. Many gamers shy away from Dark Souls due to its Git Gud reputation. And sure, this game can be legitimately challenging, especially if played without the use of guides, but beyond the difficulty curve Dark Souls' design is truly superb. Its qualities extend beyond its legendary adversity. For my tastes Dark Souls is a 9/10.* But I suppose some of that score will boil down to how much you enjoyed its aesthetics. *These were the detracting negatives for me:-You literally cannot pause the game. Literally. -The camera is the true final boss. -There's rarely any background music. -Progression and plot can both be overly cryptic at times (especially to access secret areas/DLC). -Enemy item drops often fall with enemies off ledges.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 18, 2023 17:58:33 GMT -5
A'ight, let's talk a little more about Dark Souls.
First of all, clear time was around 55 hours. Faster than expected, but not completely out of line. There was definitely a sort of King's Field reduction of difficulty the further I went in, partly from understanding the game and its mechanics, and partly from just getting significantly beefed up with powerful equipment. Not gonna lie, getting that fully-powered Iaito with the crazy DEX scaling of my build really kicked in with the latter half/third of the game.
So, here's my positives:
- Great sense of environment and space. These are clearly well-designed areas, but they also have a sort of logic to them that makes sense. They feel like somewhere that could be real, at least in this sort of universe. They also scratch that exploration itch, because it actually makes finding stuff meaningful. This is something other games can get terribly wrong, but Dark Souls absolutely gets it right. - Dark, foreboding atmosphere. FromSoft does this well, clearly, because KF4 also has this conceit. If you're looking for a dark fantasy, this is it. - Solid, challenging combat. Sometimes a bit too challenging, but a lot of that can depend on your weapons and strength level. You can skill your way through a ton (I know there are low-level runs all over), but your margin for error is extremely low. For a while, my margin was tight, too, because I prioritized DEX above all else, and very little VIT, so I was a bit of a glass cannon. And most fights seem fair - you do have to use some MMORPG tactics from time to time, though, like drawing aggro and picking off enemies, or luring them into more advantageous combat arenas. - Back to environment, there's an impressive sense of scale that pervades the proceedings. The way you can spot structures you've been to in the backgrounds, the way things can feel massive and foreboding, both from an architectural and enemy standpoint, is really impressive.
So now for the negatives:
- While the game can be relatively fair, there are absolutely times where it puts enemies in places that are meant to troll the player, or be extremely difficult. Fighting some enemies on narrow ledges where you can plummet to your doom, sneak attacks (you get good looking behind corners), or just flat-out getting smacked by a distant archer off a ledge isn't a great feeling. Yes, you learn from it, but there are moments where the game feels very, very cheap. - Speaking of cheap, one fight in particular (depending on build) feels broken - the Capra Demon fight. I'd argue that's the biggest stain on an otherwise well-designed boss roster. The combination of tight quarters, fast extra enemies to go with a boss that can hit hard, and a camera that refuses to cooperate in any way during the fight all combine to form a potential rage-quit moment. I don't know if there was much worse than this fight, just from a "this feels blatantly unfair in the worst possible way" standpoint. - And talking about the camera... well, it's not the best. Now, sometimes it's fine, and there's a sort of auto-correct feature you can turn off that improves things, but it can still do very wonky stuff. I also highly, highly recommend learning when to lock on to enemies, and when not to lock on. (But most of the time, lock-on is fine.) - I actually don't like the way the game presents its leveling structure. Souls provide both your leveling and your currency, but the whole "bonfire respawn of all enemies" was annoying compared to King's Field, where you can clear out enemies and then explore at your leisure. And I also don't like how the game basically saves at every turn, locking you into actions, including disadvantageous ones. I much prefer KF4 in this regard, and would probably trade even slightly more difficult battles if there weren't constant enemy spawns. But I also get that it allows farming and whatnot, so benefits and drawbacks. - While I missed music sometimes, I actually think the sparse usage of it made those times where it did play more impactful. So a mixed bag there. What is there is also deeply atmospheric. - The progression can definitely be cryptic at times. For instance, finding out about the Lordvessel from Frampt took a bit, because, well, I didn't actually encounter him for some time until I happened to be back in the area, and I'm like, what the heck is that serpent, oh crap. - The ragdoll physics from the enemies is absolutely obnoxious. I would argue that it's something that detracts heavily from the mood when a corpse has clipped inside your character and you're dragging it around for a while. The game should have had them drop on the spot and do away with that ridiculousness. I hope the sequels didn't keep that mess. - And yes, the inability to pause is also something that is completely unnecessary. I get that everything is supposed to be a threat at all times, but in practice, it just means that if real-life comes calling, you're going to be screwed. It's not great.
Lots of little nitpicks, but thankfully none of it keeps it from being a great game. If it managed to keep me going for over 50 hours (but admittedly starting to flag a bit), then it has to be doing something compelling enough to keep me coming back, especially since I've not had the stamina for longer games these days. I'll give this an 8.5/10. It feels wrong to rate it above KF4, and I'm still not sure I like it better, but it's definitely the more polished from a combat point of view, which helps. And it still has enough exploration chops to make it feel worthwhile. Definitely recommended for those that want a dark ARPG.
PS: I remember people saying this is what Zelda needed to become, and even with my praise, that is an absolute hard pass from me. Let Zelda be Zelda, and let Dark Souls be Dark Souls. Both have an excellent setup that lends itself to entertaining gameplay depending on one's tastes.
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Post by Xeogred on Jan 18, 2023 19:01:53 GMT -5
On your negatives: - Do you feel the same about enemy placement being "unfair" in Castlevania? Ninja Gaiden? I'm not sure I'd ever say that. It just makes the level design in these Souls games kind of puzzle-like, something to methodically overcome. I guess that's me though with all of these games, even through Anor Londo, I wouldn't call enemy placement in these intentionally "cheap". - I'm frankly shocked that Capra Demon was your toughest boss fight in this entire game. But I guess everyone has a different experience per boss. I just feel like I've never seen someone struggle with that fight to such a degree and then beat the DLC overnight as you did. Manus, etc, didn't sound like a challenge at all. Those bosses eat Capra Demon for breakfast to me. - Guess I've never had an issue with the camera in these. But yeah some big bosses you're strafing around a lot, it's better to not lock on. - You can clear enemies out of an area and chose not to rest at a bonfire right away to safely explore it? I'm not sure I see your problem here compared to KF's saving system. Guess it's just a preference. Either game would be boring if enemies didn't respawn (though they despawn after awhile in DS2 oddly enough). - I think the lack of pause is like the camera to me... can't argue it's good or bad, so I'm neutral on it. Hopefully you at least realized you can quit/load back in at any point in the game. I guess Ex beat Demons/Dark without realizing that (not that I blame anyone, I still try to leave off on bonfires myself anyways).
Glad you liked it overall, no issues with that score.
I don't want to make too much of a comparison to KF4, they're definitely different beasts in the end and offer their own strengths. I often make the Zelda comparison myself, but I'd never say Dark Souls is what Zelda "should be", rather I just think people who grew up on Zelda like me who want something more mature/darker, might get a similar sense of adventure in these. To really boil down the Souls games, I think they're pretty much single player dungeon crawlers. Immaculate ones at that. 3D Zelda games tend to have more gatekeeping, set pieces/triggers, fetch quests, etc, they're grand epic adventures, but not as replayable to me. For my tastes the modern FromSoftware games are zen incarnate... they just let the player play the game and be free. Especially in the 2010's when Demon's Souls and Dark Souls dropped and respected the player unlike many games from that era, dang did I respect them in return for it. Long story short, I'm glad FromSoftware never backed down on their philosophies and only doubled down. Doing so brought the world Elden Ring, probably a 20 million seller at this point, an absolute monstrous success. So I must not be the only one feeling like they've been doing pretty much everything right for my tastes and carved a niche' into a massive audience. It's staggering how huge and beautiful these games are too, when they probably only have like 20% of the manpower that big Western AAA publishers have. Well I obviously have my bias here, but yeah FromSoftware are just a cut above the norm to me.
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Post by toei on Jan 18, 2023 20:35:47 GMT -5
So how do you go to the bathroom while playing Dark Souls? Anywhere safe you can leave your character for a minute?
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Post by Xeogred on Jan 18, 2023 20:56:30 GMT -5
Just put the controller down. It's an ARPG where you aggro enemies. So it's not as hard to stop as it might sound. If you're interrupted during a boss fight or something, yeah that's a game over.
These games are mostly designed around online play and being invaded by other human players. This is why you can't freely pause the game whenever you want. I guess some might argue it should be optional while playing in offline mode, but oh well.
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Post by Ex on Jan 18, 2023 22:28:30 GMT -5
First of all, clear time was around 55 hours. You beat Dark Souls 8 hours faster than me, EIGHT HOURS! That's wild. Not sure why our times were so different. I did spent a lot of time slowly and methodically exploring every environment, and I made it a mission to kill everything in the game except Frampt. Yes you can kill Frampt. (There's actually an evil Frampt, who if you follow changes the game considerably. You should read up on that, it's pretty crazy.) It is impressive you created a perfect DEX build coupled with a perfect DEX weapon on your first run. Not sure how you figured that out on your own, but clearly it was effective. I agree that DS has awesome level designs. So did Demon's Souls, perhaps even more so since DeS levels are linear and don't have to worry about being recursive. >there are moments where the game feels very, very cheap I don't agree with that. For me Dark Souls always felt fair. Sure you had to learn from surprises at times, but the game never felt cruel to me. Unlike say the Flamelurker or Maneaters in Demon's Souls, those were cruel ass bosses. >the Capra Demon fight Your situation with this boss still surprises me, in that Capra Demon was such a difficult fight for you. I literally obliterated that boss on my first attempt, to the point I didn't realize it was even a boss at first. I honestly thought Capra was a mere mid-boss. But after that struggle, you were able to swat down O&S, Artorias, Ceaseless Discharge, Kalameet, Manus, and every other boss like gnats with a steam train pace. That's how your posts read anyway. It's like everything miraculously changed for you after the Capra fight. >camera I'm with you on the camera being a jerk. It wasn't great in DeS either. >locking on enemies I rarely locked onto enemies in DS. Doing so often caused camera issues or dodging issues for me. >The progression can definitely be cryptic at times Absolutely. It was impressive you figured out how to get back to the asylum by yourself, get the doll, know where to use the doll to go into the painting, all on your own. Just figuring out how to enter the DLC is super cryptic as hell. Didn't seem like you missed anything in the game though. Not sure if you ever communed with the Stone Dragon? Don't recall you saying much about Ash Lake other than you beat the hydra down there. >And yes, the inability to pause is also something that is completely unnecessary That's my #1 complaint with DS and DeS. It's just rude to the player period. Sometimes you are in a situation where you can tuck into a corner, and do what needs doing outside the game. But not always. Real life doesn't care if you're in a boss fight, and the game should let you pause in that case. People whine about the Souls games not having difficulty levels, I'm glad they don't have difficulty levels. But they damn sure should let the player pause the game. Even if you jump out into the OS menu, they game will keep running in the background. >it managed to keep me going for over 50 hours It sure did seem like this one got you on a steam train. Hadn't seen you wreck a game this hardcore in a long time. The Souls games are addictively compelling for sure. >I remember people saying this is what Zelda needed to become Zelda doesn't need to become "Zelda Souls", I agree that's unnecessary. If anybody wants hard Zelda give the Brandish games a go. - I don't want to make too much of a comparison to KF4 I see people compare the KF games to the Souls games often. For me they are very different games. Souls is not third person KF at all. But there is some KF DNA in the Souls series, I'll grant that. Mostly in atmosphere and lack of hand holding. So how do you go to the bathroom while playing Dark Souls? Anywhere safe you can leave your character for a minute? Hopefully if you need to pause, you are in a safe environment free of enemies to do so. Otherwise real life gets ignored or YOU DIED.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 18, 2023 22:51:33 GMT -5
I actually meant to point that out. There's definitely some NES-era sort of design philosophy going here with some of the enemy placements. You're right, it makes it a bit of a puzzle how to handle them as well, but it can be very frustrating when it results in instant death. I died a ton (is there a way to see total deaths?), but I don't know that I'd say the game is actually harder than some of the truly hard NES games, but it's definitely up there.
I honestly think Capra Demon was so hard because of build more than anything. I honestly needed a better shield, and better roll timing. I suspect I could have dodged his attack if I'd had more experience, but I'd still say I was learning the ropes at that point. I suspect if I went back now I'd have an easier time, but the camera is still the absolute deadliest thing in the fight, on top of those stupid dogs. Once I managed to get them off of me, it got much easier.
As far as build is concerned, this is where I admit that going in, I'd read things about various builds. It's something I tend to do with D&D games as well, trying to understand the mechanics of the game and how it all works. But I knew going in that I wanted to concentrate on DEX, I just needed to know if said build was viable. Apparently it's also quite doable to use the Scimitar or the Falchion, basically anything that scales well with DEX. No question I'd have figured that much out.
It seems like I steamrolled them, but honestly... I really didn't. Lots of deaths that were excised for brevity:
- O&S - Third shot, but it was harrowing the entire time. I spent so much time running. So. Much. Running. Finding openings to hit Smough was tough, but then powered-up Ornstein was cake. - Artorias - Four deaths, I think, and my poor hand was cramping most of the fight. So much shielding and dodging. And trying to find Estus Flask openings. - Ceaseless Discharge - Okay, this one was easy, but maybe I just got lucky with his pattern. I was basically in the corner where I got the items that trigger him, and all he did other than one time was the fist smash attack. - Kalameet - Fourth or fifth shot, I think. He killed me unawares the first time, got me with that defense reduction the second, hit me with it again the third time but I got clear (and lost the battle anyway), and I think I may have had another death. He was nice to not use the stupid defense thing from there, but I was also crazy staying away so he would pull it, and I'd often wait for that straight flying charge move to roll clear and get some shots in. - Manus - I cut it very tight, but did get him first go if I remember right. But I burned up a lot of Estus, and he kept catching me in combos that I only really started figuring out as the battle wore on. I basically brute-forced it because I had a stash of 20 Flasks.
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Post by Ex on Jan 18, 2023 23:03:26 GMT -5
It's important to remember when Demon's Souls and Dark Souls released; the seventh generation. This was the generation when modern gaming became very easy overall. Way easier than sixth and fifth, insofar as 3D games go. DeS and DS both choose to instead go back to oldschool difficulty. Which is hardly impossible, but was a rude slap in the face for modern gamers of the time who had no experience with NES era game design. For us oldtimers, well for me anyway, I love that the Souls games actually respect the player and don't patronize them with kid's gloves.
I never felt like I couldn't Gud it in Dark Souls. However, I do recall a moment in Demon's Souls where I questioned if I really had it in me to beat DeS fair and square (no guide usage I mean). I did pull through though, and it was a glorious feeling. A feeling I never got with other seventh gen games that are very easy holistically. It was that white knuckle feeling when you've got it all on the line and a screw up means a long trek back, just like the hoary old days of gaming in the '80s/'90s. To be honest Dark Souls was not as hard as Demon's, but they are both legitimately challenging in the best way possible. Except for not being able to PAUSE.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 18, 2023 23:19:02 GMT -5
I do wonder, though, if I were to drop back to DeS with what I've learned, that I might have an easier time of it. I feel like I've got a base to build on here.
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