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Post by toei on Dec 20, 2020 1:02:55 GMT -5
I disagree with that, obviously. Storytelling in older video games benefit from the conciseness imposed on them by the medium, and storytelling in games in general benefits from the higher degree of involvement that comes from controlling the main character. As such, they should be judged for what they are, and not how they sound in theory. Most stories I've experienced in Japanese RPGs would not have been interesting to me in another medium, but I enjoyed playing through them. In the case of most older RPGs, what matters is almost never the motivation for leaving on a journey or the confrontation with the antagonist at the end - in fact, they almost always suck from a narrative standpoint (though fighting the final boss is usually a gameplay highlight for turn-based RPGs, at least). What matters is the journey itself. That's where the story really is. Going from town to town, and all the adventures you encounter along the way. And I find that RPGs are much better are giving you a sense of adventure than most forms of fiction. That's older RPGs, of course. I didn't really start running into really terrible stories until the new style of RPGs that started appearing on the PSX in small numbers, and became more and more common in subsequent generations - those that eschewed the sense of adventure for overlong cutscenes and focused on the worst parts of RPG storytelling (melodrama, power-of-friendship, eeeeeevil, etc).
I feel the same way about horror. Most horror movies, novels, etc., do not engage me. Very often, what should be scary is stupid and ridiculous. There are exceptions, of course. But in video game form, the simple act of playing through the same type of story I would roll my eyes at in another breathes life into them and makes them come alive. Provided the game is any good, that it. And again, the brevity helps. All the story sequences in a PSX Resident Evil game, or the first two Silent Hills, probably amount to 1/50th of the time it would take to read through the average Stephen King novel. (I like King, but almost never for the horror - it's the psychology of the characters and the depiction of certain parts of the US - mostly New England - that he's good at).
"But toei, Super Metroid and A Link to the Past have concise stories!" They have nonexistent stories, which isn't the same thing. Their narratives are on the level of Streets of Rage. But Streets of Rage is a pure action game, and the story does not matter one bit; Zelda is in most ways an action RPG, so for me, the lack of towns and story hold it back, leaving nothing but the skeleton of what an action RPG should be. Super Metroid is a borderline case where I don't mind as much. Lack of story is hardly the main reason I found it mediocre, though a better story could have helped.
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Post by Ex on Dec 20, 2020 1:32:55 GMT -5
Super Metroid and A Link to the Past have / nonexistent stories That's objectively false, concerning both games, as I already proved with links you ignored. It doesn't bother me that you don't like ALttP or SM, that's your fair opinion to have. But your bias being so strong against both games, to the point of making false claims to disparage them, is honestly a bit silly.
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Post by toei on Dec 20, 2020 2:12:36 GMT -5
Super Metroid and A Link to the Past have / nonexistent stories That's objectively false, concerning both games, as I already proved with links you ignored. It doesn't bother me that you don't like ALttP or SM, that's your fair opinion to have. But your bias being so strong against both games, to the point of making false claims to disparage them, is honestly a bit silly. It's not "objectively false". I'm aware they *technically* have a story. What I've been saying over and over is that it amounts to so little as to not count. If someone eats two crackers on Monday and nothing for the next 6 days, are you going to argue with them if they say they've had nothing to eat all week? It's so little that it might as well be nothing. That's my appreciation of those "stories", which are only really there as an excuse for the game to start, much like the stories in '90s beat-'em-ups or any other type of action game where the story doesn't matter. I don't know why you'd even want to "prove it with links". I've played through both of those games, remember? Obviously I'm aware of their content. I don't even hate them. They're okay-ish. Just massively overrated.
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Post by Xeogred on Dec 20, 2020 7:24:38 GMT -5
I bet you'd hate the Souls games because of Hidetaka Miyazaki's philosophy on minimal storytelling in games, allowing the player to have an imagination and dig into the mysteries of a lot of the context around the edges. I think some old games convey similar feelings to me and sure, they might not have the most well written (literally) stories or straight dialogue telling you everything along the way, but environmental storytelling, the atmosphere and music, and a well detailed world can really make an adventure feel vast to me even without all the typical story telling beats.
Which I think applies to the Dragon Quest games a lot as well. They tell small isolated stories and the characters of the ones I've played so far, aren't exactly the most fleshed out personalities ever or anything. But all the other things build up to make the adventure feel bigger in ways.
Anyways yeah getting too subjective here. So yeah on that note, Link to the Past and Super Metroid are perfect games. Top 2 in my book. Doom is #3, which showcases for me... Gameplay > Story, is more usual than the other way around.
I can go the other way if it's a genre I like though, ie the Metal Gear Solid series, the Xenosaga's, etc. Chalk full of story/cutscenes and I eat it up, since I love such settings, themes, and those characters.
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Post by toei on Dec 20, 2020 9:42:57 GMT -5
Neither of those two SNES games have detailed worlds, though, or anything much to piece together. Quite the opposite. I always thought I'd probably like Dark Souls, actually. I went over why I didn't find Super Metroid when I played it in 2018 or 2019. I didn't find it to have very good gameplay at all. A Link to the Past is better overall, but there's still nothing all that special about the gameplay.
DQ is the best example of what I said yesterday about good RPG storytelling - it's about the journey and all the smaller stories you encounter.
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Post by Xeogred on Dec 20, 2020 12:29:34 GMT -5
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Post by Ex on Dec 20, 2020 12:56:55 GMT -5
I'm aware they *technically* have a story. Then stop saying they don't have stories. Purely subjective. Yes, I would argue with them, because objectively they did eat something that week. Facts are facts, whether we like them or not. ALttP and SM both have stories, that's factual, you've even admitted so yourself.
Because I like to rely on more than just personal subjective feelings to represent an argument. You have been falsely portraying a lack of content in two games which many hold in extremely high regard, including myself. It's not unusual for someone to defend something they care about. I understand you played through both of these games, but I believe you disliked them so much, that now your personal retrospective perception of their storytelling is blinded by negative bias. A distinctive outlier of an opinion to have concerning these two games. But fair enough.
Neither of those two SNES games have detailed worlds, though, or anything much to piece together. Quite the opposite. So... The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past and Super Metroid do not have detailed worlds well pieced together... I think you are just trolling us at this point. DQ is the best example of what I said yesterday about good RPG storytelling - it's about the journey and all the smaller stories you encounter. DQ is also a turn-based JRPG, full of towns and NPCs to talk with, thereby providing opportunity for large amounts of textual exposition. ALttP and SM are not in the same genre, they are dynamic action games first and foremost. As a result their storytelling is mostly portrayed via show-don't-tell action events, not reams of text boxes. That said, I can understand if a player inherently prefers one form of plot exposition over the other form. - toei I am planning to play Dark Souls next year, so is paulofthewest . It'd be great if you joined us.
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Post by Sarge on Dec 20, 2020 13:49:48 GMT -5
Alright, guys, settle down. We're all friends here. Anyway, I very much disagree that they don't have detailed worlds. Mostly because of this thread, I've actually been playing LttP a bit - enough to finish the first dungeon. I've seen what, to me, seems like more cohesive and believable world-building than most of its contemporaries. There have been lots of little allusions as to what is happening in the world: Link getting soldiers sicced on him because a rumor has gone around that he kidnapped the princess, the boy that gives you the bug net alluding to his sickness emanating from the mountains, hints at the Zoras, the ancient Hylians... all interesting stuff. And there is more text than I remembered. No, it isn't as much as Soul Blazer, but the quality is far higher. (Seriously, Soul Blazer retranslation when?) In full disclosure, in the past, when I find a game overrated, I would find myriad reasons to nitpick it to death. None more than Super Mario Bros. 3, which I now acknowledge as a sublime experience. I felt this with Final Fantasy VII and Ocarina of Time to lesser extents. I think I can just have something of a reflexive reaction to heavily criticize a game that I think is "okay" or "good", and others call it the greatest game of all time. I probably still have that happen to this day, and I have to fight it pretty hard. You may be more objective about this than I am, though, dunno!
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Post by Ex on Dec 20, 2020 14:07:22 GMT -5
Seriously, Soul Blazer retranslation when? There is this: www.romhacking.net/translations/4115/That's how I replayed the game recently. I thought this fan translation was better than the original.
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Post by Xeogred on Dec 20, 2020 18:30:55 GMT -5
I love that Quintet font style.
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