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Post by Ex on Oct 2, 2018 23:32:50 GMT -5
I don't want to play an RPG five different times in order to see all of the characters if it's possible to see them all in the first pass because I know I'm not going to come back and play it 5 different times. I see that argument a lot in favor of walkthroughs being used for RPGs. "I don't want to miss any content." Fair enough, whatever works for the player.
But for the sake of conversation, let me say I see this situation differently.
I see aided wholesale devouring of an entire RPG's contents, in which the playthrough is holistically thorough, as lacking any personal meaning. That's like going up to a buffet bar, and eating out of every single available dish, just because it's all there. Yet playing through an RPG on your own, and only experiencing the parts you uncover personally, gives the journey a more individualistic touch. No, you didn't taste the entire buffet, but you made yourself a nice meal that was wholly your own creation. Maybe some flavors were left untasted, but no one else experienced the same plate you did as a result. That's your plate, you made it.
Food metaphors aside; playing through an RPG on my own feels like a personal voyage. Playing through an RPG with a guide/walkthrough feels like I'm on a tour bus. Maybe they both end up at the same place, but if the journey matters, I know which one I prefer.
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Post by chibby on Oct 3, 2018 13:24:50 GMT -5
I don't want to play an RPG five different times in order to see all of the characters if it's possible to see them all in the first pass because I know I'm not going to come back and play it 5 different times. That's like going up to a buffet bar, and eating out of every single available dish, just because it's all there. Yet playing through an RPG on your own, and only experiencing the parts you uncover personally, gives the journey a more individualistic touch. No, you didn't taste the entire buffet, but you made yourself a nice meal that was wholly your own creation. Maybe some flavors were left untasted, but no one else experienced the same plate you did as a result. That's your plate, you made it. Ironically, this metaphor is more apt than you might imagine because I am exactly the kind of person who wants to taste everything at a buffet. I totally see your point here, and I feel that way about most games, but for some reason RPG's are the exception to the rule. I think because I see RPGs as games that rely more heavily on their character arcs and story content than, a shooter or a plat-former, I'm willing to go a little bit out of my way to avoid missing something. And I want to stress that I am aiming for minimal usage, we're talking like 5% of the time I'm looking at a walkthrough, and the rest I'm just going along on my merry way. I guess, to continue your metaphor, even if I ask the rest of my table if there's an ice cream bar right before we leave I can still feel like I've made my own plate (or plates, because when I buffet, I buffet hard!) up to that point and it doesn't make the whole experience feel impersonal to me. I totally respect Ex's view here, and there are times when, depending on the game, I'll just rough it without any sort of guidance. In fact, I think that's what got me so lost in FFVI. Also, for those of you that have noticed, I am going to keep mentioning that I'm somewhere in the middle of FFVI because I think I might be able to guilt myself into getting back into it if I do Unrelated, it occurred to me that I forgot to mention something when it comes to hacking. Would that also apply to the super handy dandy speed tab that most emulators include? Cause let me tell you does that little guy EVER get some use. I don't see that as cheating at all, it just means I spend 20 extra hours unnecessarily grinding instead of 40.
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Post by Xeogred on Oct 3, 2018 17:39:48 GMT -5
Unrelated, it occurred to me that I forgot to mention something when it comes to hacking. Would that also apply to the super handy dandy speed tab that most emulators include? Cause let me tell you does that little guy EVER get some use. I don't see that as cheating at all, it just means I spend 20 extra hours unnecessarily grinding instead of 40. I realized near the end of my Koudelka run I should have looked into this on the PSX to speed those battles up, haha. Oh well.
No shame... heck, some of the new ports like FFIV Complete on PSP even have fast forward features built in.
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Post by Sarge on Oct 3, 2018 17:43:49 GMT -5
Yeah, if you're grinding, you're just removing time off the top. More games should implement a fast-forward. I don't see it as any different from how I use save-states to practice hard parts of games. Actually, I'd argue the fast-forward is even more legit, because grinding in many games defines the word "tedium".
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Post by dunpeal2064 on Oct 9, 2018 3:59:26 GMT -5
Little late to the discussion, but its one I find interesting, so I'll jump in anyways. I tend to lump games into two different categories, and apply my own set of rules to them depending on where they fall. - If a game is about discovery, if the fun/challenge/purpose of the game is in figuring things out (Or if the fun/challenge is entirely removed once those things are figured out) than I avoid any outside help to the best of my ability. I am okay missing things, even really cool things, as I feel like the total experience is better for me if I avoid following a guide. This tends to hold true for games that don't fit this descriptor, but are very easy, too. If I hit a point where I feel like my only two choices are to stop playing due to frustration, or to peak at a guide for some sort of direction, at that point I may give in, if the rest of the game was fun enough that I'd rather continue. - If a game is about precise inputs, execution, memorization, etc (Or, if the challenge remains despite learning the game inside and out), than everything is free game to me. Save States, Cheats, Hacks, Walkthrough videos, I'll use whatever I can to progress faster and make better use of my time spent learning. Of course, once it comes time to put knowledge and reflexes to the test, the game must be played in its standard form, but imo, there is no cheating in practicing, only more efficient practice. I do understand why someone would veer off from how I do things, though. Permanently missing a really cool thing in an 80 hour RPG that you'll never play again sucks, and depending on what you are getting out of the game, a Walkthrough might not really take away much from the experience. Similarly, I can see why someone would feel more rewarded progressing at a slower pace in a memo/execution game, as figuring things out from scratch is a treat in itself. I do think Credit-Feeding in a game with infinite credits and no checkpoints in a "legit run" should be punishable by verbal lashings from elitists, though.
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Post by chibby on Oct 9, 2018 8:29:17 GMT -5
So here's a perfect example of when I start using guides that comes from my recent experience playing Phantasy Star/Phantasy Star II.
I got to the final boss of Phantasy Star and was pretty suprised when he one shot KO'd my entire party in the first round. I loaded the game again and one shot died again. So at this point, I was pretty sure that I'd missed some key item.
In order to get to that final boss, you have to navigate 2 seperate dungeons (the tower of Baya Malay and then Lassic's Air Castle). I didn't know if this key item was in one of these two dungeons, or if it was somewhere else on in the game world. Also, I had kind of pumped myself up finish the game that night. So, yes, I did look up to see what/where that item was, and then, I did look at a map to renavigate a dungeon that I'd already navigated. I don't feel great about it, but, I think still it was better than rage quiting.
Other Phantasy Star guide uses: The spells/techs in both PS and PSII never seem readily apparent to me as to what they to. Cure and Res, sure that makes sense. Bye? Tele? (not a spell that teleports you back to the previous town, that would be "FLY") Zan? Foi? I don't feel any shame for looking up what a spell does once I've earned it. I specifically try to avoid lengthy lists that tell me who gets what spell, I'm just interested in what an individual spell does. I also looked up what weapons in PSII can be equiped to which party member. This kind of stuff seems like it would be in an instruction manual, so I don't feel like I've destroyed the integrity of the experience.
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Post by Ex on Oct 9, 2018 8:36:47 GMT -5
Other Phantasy Star guide uses: The spells/techs IIRC the game manuals did explain what the spells and techs did. There's no harm at all in looking that stuff up.
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Post by toei on Oct 10, 2018 23:43:06 GMT -5
EX brings up an important point: even as retro gamers, we tend to forget how much vital information was often found in manuals. Move lists, item / equipment / spell descriptions, sometimes maps... In Jewel Master, which I recently played, there was a list of weapons that specifically stated what weapon you needed to beat the final boss. It didn't tell you how to get it, but just knowing it existed led me to experiment and find it. If I hadn't looked at the manual before making it there, I might have thought I was just doing something wrong and wasted lives and time trying to figure out where his weak spot was. I know somebody here posted about struggling with that for a while. The manuals were an integral part of the experience at the time, and shouldn't be neglected. For Genesis games, you can find scans of most manuals at segaretro.org. Otherwise, it's sometimes worth looking up a game's basics in a FAQ, while making sure to avoid spoilers. When I play an old VS fighter, I always look up a move list and stuff, since they just didn't have training modes at the time.
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Post by Sarge on Oct 11, 2018 11:22:42 GMT -5
I would have saved so much time in Zelda II if a buddy of mine hadn't lost my manual for it. I somehow forgot that the Hammer could "chop" trees, so I was stuck trying to find the hidden town for ages. Of course, the game actually changes the rules on you; all other hidden-object tiles allow you to enter as long as you step on the square. That spot is the only place where you have to reveal it to enter.
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Post by Ex on Oct 11, 2018 14:06:33 GMT -5
Yeah once upon a time game manuals were both really important, and fairly entertaining. Replacementdocs.com used to be THE place to download game manuals, but sadly despite the website still existing, all their PDF files seem to have been deleted off the server. Nowadays I tend to check a GameFAQs walkthrough just for controls information, or item descriptions, stuff that a manual would have likely had anyway.
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