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Post by Ex on Sept 18, 2018 7:57:24 GMT -5
For clarity:
Save-states = Using artificial hard checkpoints created within emulators (or soft load devices).
Cheats = Using cheats or cheat codes that already exist within the game via its developers.
Hacks = Using hardware or software to alter game RAM/code outside what its developers intended.
Strategy guides = Literature meant to give the player direction on how to approach specific challenges within a game, while leaving the majority of the play experience up to the player.
Walkthrough = Literature meant to guide the player by the hand through the entire game, leaving no room for player error or possibility of failure.
What do you all think about these elements when it comes to your own gaming? Do you ever use any of these tools while playing games yourselves? When playing an RPG do you always check a strategy guide or walkthrough for aid? When emulating a hard action game, do you use save-states to speed up the process of beating it? When using a flashcart device do you employ hacks (like infinite lives)? Do you think it's smart business to use stuff like this to making gaming funner? Or do you think all of this stuff is just wussy crap for weaklings?
I'll be back later with my own responses.
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Post by nullPointer on Sept 18, 2018 12:36:53 GMT -5
Yet another interesting topic for discussion! My usage of these tools and indeed my opinion regarding has certainly shifted over time. Getting into it:
Save states - There's such a fine line here between convenience and abuse (and indeed I think everyones definition of what constitutes 'convenience' and 'abuse' is entirely subjective). For my part, I definitely employ save states but moreso as a means of convenience and 'check-pointing'. I generally avoid spamming save states, but I have no problem setting up save states between levels, after boss fights, or even 'mid-stage' in particularly long stage segments. My rationale here is that as an adult my playtime tends to be fairly limited, and I'm never particularly sure whether I'll be able to devote an hour to a longer gaming session or whether I'll be interrupted after a few minutes. Save states help me to manage these factors, while still maintaining some sense of forward progress in a given game. Save states are a modern convenience for which I'm grateful even if a more 'hardcore' gamer might see it as a form of cheating.
Cheats - Cheats are a bit of a gray area for me. I've certainly employed the Konami Code in a fair number of applicable games, but for those games that I really enjoyed I've also gone on to beat them legit. If we turn the hands of the clock to something slightly more modern, I'm a fan of the Traveller's Tales LEGO games which always feature unlockable cheats by means of collectable items. I never turn on Invincibility or other game breaking cheats, but I pretty much always employ Stud Multipliers and anything that helps me locate other collectibles (I enjoy going for 100% completion in these games, and these cheats help me do that in a more reasonable amount of time). So again it's a matter of personal preference in terms of what cheats one can employ without 'breaking the game' in such a way as to make it suddenly boring and/or unfun. All the same though I'd contend that this type of cheat is something that the developers intentionally injected into the game and as such can still be considered a 'legitimate' part of the game.
Hacks - Hacks on the other hand are not a 'legitimate' part of the game. This style of cheat by definition is something that breaks or exploits the game in a way that the developer never intended. (I also need to specify that here I'm using the term 'Hack' purely as it applies to the above definition; ROM hacks and the like are a completely different beast). So I've always been pretty dubious of this sort of thing, even from the very first time I learned of the Game Genie. To me this sort of cheat violates the 'contract' between developer and player and as a result kind of falls outside of the realm of 'fairplay'. Again though it's all a matter of personal tolerances. It can be quite entertaining to watch a crazy speed run relying on exploits of the game.
Strategy Guides - Haha I was using strategy guides clear back when Nintendo Power was a free news letter-zine known as the Nintendo Fun Club. (Somewhere packed away I still have the personalized certificate I received from Nintendo for joining the Nintendo Fun Club  ). So I really don't have any issue utilizing strategy guides. Heck sometimes a strategy guide helps immerse me into a game even more by means of multimedia exposure. And for that matter, official strategy guides (and the previously mentioned Nintendo Power) can be really nice pieces of video game media in their own right. I can say without question that strategy guides have exposed aspects of certain games that I'd never have discovered otherwise.
Walkthrough - The impact of using a walkthrough can vary a lot depending on the game and genre you're playing. Of course I think there can be a very fine line between Strategy Guide and Walkthough. Have you ever looked at a walkthrough for a Mega Man game (to pick one random example)? Sure it may describe each level in detail, but at the end of the day you're still the one pushing the buttons as it were. OTOH a detailed walkthrough for an adventure game can be fatally detrimental to the experience, or at least depending on what you hope to get out of the experience. I guess some folks might enjoy moving from story point to story point without having to sweat it out on the puzzles, but for my own personal tolerance it would ruin the experience of the gameplay. It can be interesting to utilize a walkthrough for games you've already beaten though, as it can expose parts of the game you might have missed the first time around.
At the end of the day it all comes down to a question of what will help to enhance your gaming experience. What tools will help you get the most out of your playtime? Because that's what's important and why I tend to scoff a bit at shaming folks for any or all of the above. In this regard the only rules are the ones you make.
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Sept 18, 2018 14:06:24 GMT -5
I use save states (usually just as an extended pause), print strategy guides, and online walkthroughs. That's simply what works best for me.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 18, 2018 14:41:10 GMT -5
Save-states - Using them as fine, as long as you acknowledge that it's not a "legit" win. Unless, of course, you're just using them in lieu of a password system or for taking breaks. I also have used save-states in the past to practice problem areas in games. Then I make a legit run. I have no issues with shortening the learning curve.
Cheats - Strangely, I practically never use in-game cheats, even if I make use of save-states a bunch. I guess the Konami code counts, as it enabled me to practice before I could run the game without continues. There are also games that have hidden continue features, and I will occasionally use them to power through.
Hacks - This is another that lines up with the above. I've used a Game Genie a few times when I was younger. For instance, Blaster Master is a very long game for its type, with no passwords, so instead of getting really far into it, my brother and I used an unlimited continue code. I don't remember, however, if we even had to continue in our successful run. Occasionally, I think this is acceptable in the same way that save-states were, in that you want to see content that you've been brick-walled from. It in no way counts as a legitimate win, but if you don't care to claim as such, I'm good with it.
Strategy guides - Interestingly, I don't know that strategy guides always help. Sometimes the information can be flat-out wrong. I definitely advocate using them in the case where you can miss vast swaths of content, or the ending requirements are byzantine in nature. Shadow Hearts, Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky, and Valkyrie Profile all come to mind. I'm also good with using them to get back on track after an extended period away from the game. I came back to my 20-hour playthrough of Wild ARMs 3 after a few years, and it took me a good two hours of meticulously following the guide to get back on track.
Walkthrough - I see walkthroughs and strategy guides as very similar. Ironically, I think walkthroughs can often be less helpful. Sometimes they will detail a specific strategy that worked for them, but actually setting up to be able to use said strategy would take longer than actually finding another way to win a particular battle. I use them primarily in the same manner as above; cases where I get stuck, don't want to miss content, or to get back on track.
I'd add one more category to this, and that's watching longplays. Sometimes these can be very enlightening on what you might be doing wrong in a fight. I've definitely used that in lieu of a walkthrough a few times when stuck. And sometimes, it just confirms that you're doing things right; the stage is just that brutal. (I did this for Werewolf: The Last Warrior recently, and no, there's no sneaky tricks, it just takes spectacular execution and fighting the iffy controls.)
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Post by toei on Sept 18, 2018 18:28:13 GMT -5
Save states: To be used like a quicksave when I have or want to stop playing but it's not possible or convenient to save. Exceptionally, I will create one before a really tough boss (usually the final) so I can practice it until I got it down once I'm tired of going through the rest of the game to get there, but I will always do a full, clean run after. I've only done this 3 times so far; didn't regret it for Ninja Gaiden NES and Sunset Riders SNES, but it turned out to be unnecessary for Jewel Master. Any other use cheapens my experience.
Cheats, hacks, etc.: no. I have used exactly one Game Genie code in my life; it was to turn random encounters on and off in an otherwise intolerable RPG called Ancient Magic, because the story was decent. As a kid I sometimes messed with codes when I found them in magazines, but I'm not interested now.
Walkthrough: When nearing the end of a RPG, or after beating it, I like to see if there's any optional stuff I missed. If I'm completely stuck for long enough and can't think of what to do, I might consult one. And of course for older fighting games without a proper tutorial or training, they can teach you the moves and the basics.
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Post by Xeogred on Sept 18, 2018 21:18:25 GMT -5
Save-states = Definitely abused them back in the day when I first discovered emulation and played some nasty romhacks, haha. Probably 1998-2001 something. Often got myself in bad spots with horrible saves and endless cycles of death. Nowadays I rarely use them and treat them like a one time save slot, which is the real perk they provide, like if the game had a real save anywhere feature. The funny thing is how a save state can mess up an actual save slot depending on the timing though, so you have to be careful there. So nowadays I tend to just use save states if I'm done playing something for the day and can load it up at that spot when I return. Not in an abusive manner brute forcing my way through tough spots. Saving anywhere in modern games gets a thumbs up from me, but I still don't totally miss it when I go back to older stuff on actual hardware.
How about Passwords? Even though there's some nostalgia tied to the idea and we now live with phones/camera readily available... I'm kind of lazy with passwords and just use save-states instead, if I'm emulating. I figure if I mess a save state up or something goes wrong, I can probably find a password online putting me back where I need to be.
Cheats = Certainly did growing up for the fun of it, exploiting a game, or getting more fun out of them with wacky codes. Always liked those Tips & Tricks magazines or some "Unauthorized N64 Cheat Codes", the unauthorized part cracks me up looking back on them. Still, even as a kid though cheating my way through a game was a last resort and didn't really give me true satisfaction for conquering something. I always stick to Normal difficulty settings and rise it from there if I want to replay something and up the challenge. Hacks = Had some friends that owned Game Shark's for the NES or SNES growing up, they were an interesting novelty. Then I got a Game Genie for the N64 and I remember it had some HEX editor I think, so you could create your own codes with a lot of trial and error. I remember doing so in Goldeneye and made infinite health or something, which isn't a normal code. I think I did some tricks with Ocarina of Time too. Again, this wasn't to beat the games, but just more random fun kind of taking them apart in ways. Beyond that I don't know if I've ever used codes in emulators, even though I think they all have this stuff built in.
For as little as I cared about cheats/hacks, I still find it a little disappointing they're not much of a thing anymore in modern games.
Strategy guides = I have a box worth with a lot of PSX/PS2 JRPG guides. Before the internet (and still now honestly) it was cool getting stuff in these that the manuals didn't have, like tables of items, skills, character stat sheets, bio's, more lore, and awesome art work. They felt like a cool extension of the game and experience. It's fun looking back on some of them that have sticky notes or my custom bookmarks still in them. I love strategy guides for these reasons, I only used the walkthrough portions when I really needed it, or when I wanted to do 100% of everything... which was with every RPG for me back in the day. After the PS2 era, I completely stopped caring about physical guides (do they even exist now?) and also have never had any interest in special edition releases, just a bunch of physical junk taking up space in my home. But as a child of the 90's I still miss physical print media in a lot of ways, it's just not very practical now so I don't seek them out anymore.
Worst strategy guide in existence? Checkout the Final Fantasy IX Play Online guide, where every single page/tip tells you to join a now defunct premium website for the actual details. But hey, the guide helped me collect all the cards!
Walkthrough = Only reference them for RPG's sometimes, especially if people really stress that a ton of content is easily missable (ie: Shadow Hearts). GameFAQ's is a great source but I only use it sparingly. I have one friend that uses walkthroughs for literally every single genre and era of games, kind of defeats the purpose of enjoying the medium to me, that's like running on auto-pilot or something. If anything reading these giant walls of text just feels like a chore and extends the game time more than it needs to be. It lacks all the cool things that physical strategy guides provide. But yeah, everyone's different. |
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Post by Ex on Sept 18, 2018 21:24:23 GMT -5
Save-States: Like others have said, I tend to use these as "extended pauses", creating a checkpoint in a game that normally doesn't support as such. This is especially fair if used in lieu of an already existing password system. I'll typically make a save-state at the start of a level, or just before a boss. That is obviously to avoid having to re-do what I've already proven I can-do, which is to make it that far in the first place. It always bothered me as a kid when games forced the player to restart the entire level if they died at a boss, or restart the entire game if they died too many times. I understand why developers did that, but I still hated it then, just as much as I do now. save-states allow the player to bypass that artificial punishment, saving precious time. That said, one can exploit the piss out of save-states if they want to. Using save-states every five seconds to beat a difficult game is absolutely cheating. That's a form of rewinding time backwards incrementally to mask over a lack of proper skill. Cheats: I've never been much for using built-in cheats in a game. At most I might use level skip cheats to warp to levels I'd already reached on my own previously. Of course I used the Konami Code to beat Contra the first time, but that's a rite of passage for any gamer worth their mettle. I do enjoy when developers put cheat codes into games that do wacky things. Like give all the characters giant heads, or make guns turn into dolphins squirting water instead of bullets. Easter eggs like that are cool. Using a cheat code to continue on a level seems reasonable enough, it's like using a save-state. You've already proven you can make it that far. Hacks: Well now we're down to straight up cheating. I'd never consider using these methods a fair win. But a lot of folks seem to think "a win's a win" no matter how they accomplished it. (These are the people who will cheat you at cards and steal money out of the Monopoly bank when you're not looking.) I never had a GameShark, Pro Action Replay, or Game Genie growing up. My mom bought me a Game Genie when I was a kid; we took that crap back to Toys Я Us and I traded it in for Splatterhouse 3. Hacking a game so you can beat it, is in reality letting that game beat you. Strategy Guides: I'm having a very difficult time thinking of a specific instance where I've used a strategy guide to defeat a hard boss, or win a complicated mission. I'm sure I've referenced a guide at some point in my life for this purpose. Very, very rarely though. I've noticed on forums that a lot of RPG fans tend to play RPGs directly in tandem with a strategy guide the entire time. To me that would not be fun at all. One of my favorite things in RPGs is taking down hard bosses using my own strategy, or outfitting my party in optimized ways that I formulated. To have that aspect robbed because someone else's strategy might be "better" would just be a buzzkill. But I suppose for players who value the story or exposition more than the challenge, that's not important for them. Walkthrough: I'm very biased against walkthroughs. The way I see someone using a walkthrough to beat a game, is basically like the walkthrough is beating the game, not the player. The player is just taking orders from the walkthrough, when it's used so doggedly. The only time I will reference a walkthrough, is to bypass very specific moments in a game, after I've exhausted all of my patience. An example would be a completely illogical puzzle in an adventure game (we've all been there). Or if in a JRPG it suddenly decides it has no interest in guiding the player to the next plot trigger. In those instances my referencing a walkthrough is specifically for that one thing, and then I move on unguided. Even so, I always feel guilty about getting the artificial aid from a walkthrough. Like @tsumuri , that dampens my enjoyment of the experience. I put a lot of value in the challenge of a game, so to me using a walkthrough is like using a crutch. (That ol' riding the escalator up the mountain, instead of climbing it like a macho man metaphor.) I understand some people play RPGs with walkthroughs just so they don't miss anything. The flip side of that, is you can have all the surprises spoiled for you. Not a risk I like to take. Ultimately: We all play video games for different reasons. Some people are more into content tourism, enjoying the presentation, plot, music... the aesthetics of the experience. Other people may enjoy that stuff too, but still put a lot of merit into the inherent challenge of a game. Beating a difficult game imbibes a sense of accomplishment for those players, and for a gamer like me, that sense of accomplishment is accompanied by a dopamine rush. "Beating" a game using cheats or a walkthrough never gives me that same sweet sweet dopamine rush. It's just not nearly as satisfying personally. Edit: For as little as I cared about cheats/hacks, I still find it a little disappointing they're not much of a thing anymore in modern games. Modern games are so piss easy it's really not needed anymore. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 8:36:36 GMT -5
Save-states = Not a fan of save-states myself, although I can see them being used in lieu of actual saving and passwords. However, while it rarely happens, save states can also get corrupted, so I'd rather stick to in-game saving. Other than that, I can see save states being useful to familiarize yourself with a short game/level and then attempt a legit run, although this shouldn't be necessary if a game is well designed. I'm a bit conflicted but I can also accept save states in games where you have a limited amount of lives and once they're depleted you have to start from scratch: not a fan of that.
Cheats = Not for your first playthrough, but cheats have the potential to add something funny or even memorable to a game. The Cobra Car in AoE II comes to mind. Also, games like GoldenEye 007 and Perfect Dark make you work hard to unlock all the cheats and those can be a lot of fun.
Hacks = RPGs where the encounter rate was lowered and your character levels up faster come to mind. Sure why not, but I'd rather play the games vanilla myself.
Strategy guides = Some strategy guides are very well made and are quite informative, others are mere money grabs. I remember the strategy guide for the first Raidou Kuzunoha being pretty good as it even had an entire chapter where they explained the historical background of the game (an alternate universe Taishō era that lasted into the 30s). Obviously, strategy guides only make sense for games with tons of secrets, missable content, optional bosses, etc. Unlike walkthroughs, they usually won't spoil the whole experience for you but still let the player do most of the leg work.
Walkthrough = Well, I appreciate how many walkthroughs are readily available out there, especially for lesser known or even untranslated games. That said, I'd rather appreciate them from a distance. While I realize how useful they can be, the more external help I receive, the less beating a game is going to make me feel like I accomplished something. Again, I'd only throw an eye on them for a second playthrough, just to check and see what I missed the first time around.
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Post by chibby on Oct 2, 2018 16:13:35 GMT -5
I think I already shamed myself for using a walkthrough on this thread once before, but here we go:
Save States: Because my gaming collection already has more games in it than I'll probably ever get to playing, I tend to avoid emulating more games almost entirely. The only main exception to this rule is to play 8/16bit RPG's on my phone when I've got down time at work (which is less and less these days). So save stating before/during a fight in an action based game seems like a clear violation of that game, but saving before I go into a boss fight on an RPG just to avoid the hassle of walking back from the previous save state doesn't trigger any sense of guilt whatsoever. I have, very occasionally, save scummed in order to avoid bad RNG, but I try not to be a terrible person. The problem is, I haven't figured out how to properly make save files on my phone, so when I'm playing these RPG's I pretty much can only save via save-state.
Cheats: Ususally no. If I'm playing a game where my hand-eye coordination is being challenged, I usually want the challenge. Why else would I spend most of a month losing to the same boss in Viewtiful Joe? I do, as others have mentioned, like some of the silly cosmetic cheat codes, but I tend to rarely replay games and having a giant head doesn't change that much.
Hacks: I don't have the tech savvy to mess with stuff like this. I guess if I did I still wouldn't, because the reason I haven't developed those skills is because I don't care to in the first place.
Strategy Guide: Yes? I do like to know certain things about a game. For example, I am curious to know if there are special items or party members I could miss. I would prefer not to have their location just plainly spelled out to me, but I also don't want to miss them enough that I'll deal with. My ideal situation is a guide that tells me "Make sure you've found Mary before you fight the Little Lamb," or something to that effect. If I lose to the same boss enough times to definitively assertain that I won't be able to beat him without some key knowledge, I'll look for that key knowledge. Sometimes I'll look at character guides for statistical information, that I then use to inform my own strategies, but I rarely look at preplanned strategies. All of this sort of assumes I'm playing an RPG. In a shooter/platformer, I don't bother. Except for Deus Ex, if I ever get around to playing that one I know myself well enough to know that A. I'll be overwhelmed by the choices or B. I'll consult a guide. Maybe that's secretly why I haven't gotten around to playing it...
Walkthrough: Only as a last resort. For example, if I go back to playing FFVI I will be using a walkthrough to figure out where I'm supposed to go becuase I haven't touched it in months but I'm not willing to start over yet.
Google: This tends to be my go to. A perfect example of this was the Big Pile Of Puke boss in Earthbound. I fought him, lost, leveled up, fought him, lost, leveled up, fought him, and lost again until I had levelled my character some 15+ times. Eventually I googled a clue, and basically that fight is supposed to be a cakewalk, you just HAVE to use a specific item (The game makes it very clear what that item is, and when to use it, but I had stepped away from the game for about 2 weeks and had forgotten). Doing this tends to help me avoid getting more information than I want/need. Another Earthbound based example would be looking up what to do with those contact lenses you find in the desert. I never used the item that you get for finishing the quest so I don't feel like doing this helped me "beat" the game in any way so I don't feel like a cheater or like I didn't get a "true win". Hell, even save scumming to get Poo's Sword of Kings was more of a curiousity, I was WAAAAY overleveled by that point anyway, and almost always am when I RPG.
Conclusion: Most of what I'm trying to avoid is engaging in lengthy trial and error type situations. I don't want to play an RPG five different times in order to see all of the characters if it's possible to see them all in the first pass because I know I'm not going to come back and play it 5 different times. I guess in that way I'm something of a content tourist but I try not to be egregiously so. I guess if we're using tourism as a metaphor, I'd like it if someone tells there's a charming hole in the wall restaurant that I might otherwise drive past, but I don't need someone to tell me what to order. Otherwise, I use these tools as a frustration buffer. If a puzzle is liable to frustrate me to the point where I'd stop playing the game, I have no qualms about looking up that one answer. If I find myself playing a game where I'm looking up the answer to multiple puzzles, then I might rethink the experience, but usually it's a relatively small percentage of the overall content/challenge.
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Post by Xeogred on Oct 2, 2018 18:52:49 GMT -5
I have zero regrets using save states while I beat Ninja Gaiden 1-3 this week. 
Didn't really abuse them like I used to back in the day though, ie I basically just saved at times at the start of a new level or screen. The games are so briskly paced, a bad save could have easily funked you over anyways, so I still put in a lot of the work, trail and error, etc. I did go a bit heavier on the save states with NG3 though, since as Sarge pointed out the US version is harder than the original in a lot of ways.
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). So I really don't have any issue utilizing strategy guides. Heck sometimes a strategy guide helps immerse me into a game even more by means of multimedia exposure. And for that matter, official strategy guides (and the previously mentioned Nintendo Power) can be really nice pieces of video game media in their own right. I can say without question that strategy guides have exposed aspects of certain games that I'd never have discovered otherwise.
