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Post by Sarge on Nov 28, 2018 18:36:17 GMT -5
I don't know if we have one of these or not, but if we don't, we surely need one! As most folks know, the video game role-playing genre was birthed on various computer systems, especially systems like the Apple II or Commodore 64, among others. While they've been refined over the years as technology was able to match the ambitions of designers trying to capture the gist of D&D, CRPGs have maintained a feel unlike anything else on consoles. So this begs the question, especially for the older and crustier games: which ones are still worth playing? What were your formative experiences in the genre, for those of you that were lucky enough to have PC access in your younger years? If you still play some of these games, what are the best ways to experience them now? For example, Ultima VII has always been rather fiddly to get working, even when it was released, but using the Exult engine makes for a mostly flawless experience (that I keep meaning to get to!). I will also say that, to some degree, I came to these games quite late. I had limited PC access (aunt), only briefly owned a C64 when younger, and getting into RPGs while visiting for only a bit was tough. I was always wowed by stuff like Phantasie, though, and I'm quite tempted to one day play through that game. The game that convinced me to try more CRPGs, though, was Knights of the Old Republic, which proved to be a sort of gateway game that amalgamated console and computer sensibilities into a spectacular package. Thoughts? Memories? Let 'em rip!  |
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Post by toei on Nov 28, 2018 18:57:03 GMT -5
I was never too attracted to CRPGs, and have very limited experience with them. The one I played most was Realmz, a Fantasoft shareware RPG my friend had on his Macintosh computer. It was very non-linear, with a ton of scenarios available (you could buy a scenario editor to create your own) and SRPG-style battle system. One thing we were very impressed by at the time was the ability to capture monsters onto scrolls and use them in battle in addition to your regular characters. The amount of loot was also something else - you could grab literally any piece of equipment or item off of the enemies you defeated. You can still download the free demo on this ancient-looking official page, which includes a full scenario or two, and I think the author released the full game for free. I was also interested in the post-apocalyptic ARPG Bad Blood a few years ago, and even did some research to find how to get it running with music in DOSBOX, but I wasn't able to get into it because it was so open-ended. I'd like to give it another chance one day. |
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Post by Ex on Nov 28, 2018 21:25:49 GMT -5
What were your formative experiences in the genre?I was fortunate enough to have personal computers at my disposal since 1989. I played a lot of computer games growing up. However, all of them were action, simulation, or adventure games. I did not own any CRPGs growing up - with the exception of Ultima VI. However I was never able to get into U6 because its super weird isometric view bothered me. That's a problem I still have with a lot of the older Ultima games, I really don't like that extreme isometric view they use:  Something about that perspective just starts to give my brain fits.
That is not to say I think the Ultima series is not a quality CRPG line of games. I'm well aware of how important and well designed the series is. I'd like to check out the Game Boy and Master System variants someday. which ones are still worth playing?I'll have to admit that I've not beaten many CRPGs at all. To my shame that is true. If I had to boil it down to a singular reason; time. Oldschool CRPGs were usually highly nonlinear and required a significant time investment to complete. That said, I have spent time with a few CRPGs that I really liked. The original Fallout is a freaking masterpiece, I adore it and have finished it. I also spent a lot of time with Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, and Planescape Torment; all being excellent games that I sadly did not complete - but would like to complete someday. It seems that CRPGs using the Infinity Engine, or at least designed in the IE style, tend to be very good games. There've been a lot of recent Kickstarted CRPGs in this style that have been very popular. Going older than that, I would really like to play through the original Wasteland someday. I'd also like to play through the D&D Gold Box games eventually. Dark Sun and Darklands are also held in high esteem. There's another strong reason why I don't often play PC games these days; it's because I already spend so much time in front of a PC for my day job. The idea of spending even more time in front of a PC at night isn't always appealing. what are the best ways to experience them now?GOG. Seriously. GOG has most of the CRPG greats. Every game I mentioned in my posts above are on GOG for example, and many more. Knowing your tastes, I would recommend these first and foremost: www.gog.com/game/falloutwww.gog.com/game/icewind_dale_enhanced_editionwww.gog.com/game/vampire_the_masquerade_bloodlinesEdit: Of course if we're talking super-old CRPGs, emulation is the ticket. That goes for '80s and '90s Japanese PC games as well. It's not too hard to emulate PC-88 or MSX for instance.
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Post by Sarge on Nov 28, 2018 23:26:28 GMT -5
Very interesting. I'd always assumed I was one of the few folks that hadn't played through many CRPGs. I agree that they tend to be a lot more open-ended on PC. I also think that a lot of the ambition on display was also what kept them from being very polished in a lot of ways. The technology was never quite enough for the developers to achieve their vision. Indeed, I've read a few articles lately about how some of those early designers chafed at the limitations of the platforms they were working on. That's the price of trying to bring a full D&D or D&D adjacent experience to a video game form; there's going to be some growing pains.
I think this also explains why console RPGs caught on more strongly for a while. Unlike a lot of the PC designers, games like Dragon Quest took games that were quite complicated, and tried to distill them down to their essence. They then took that core and built on top of it. I do think, though, that there was a point where the technology got to where Western developers could achieve what they were trying to do, and that's where I felt like the WRPG started to really gain ground on the console RPG. It might even explain why the traditional JRPG started to fall a bit, as the Western experiences, which could often be experienced on consoles as well, had enough polish to make them fun without as many warts.
All that said, I totally see the appeal of CRPGs, and I plan on diving into more in the future. I really want to play through a Gold Box game, but I will likely do so using Gold Box Companion, which gives all sorts of niceties to the experience. I also want to eventually play through Betrayal at Krondor. That was one of the first CRPGs I experienced when I got a PC for college. It came with a PC Games magazine I bought, along with the first three Zork games, Red Baron, the first Descent, and the sublime Star Control 2. Good times! (I still have that disc, actually; I just laid eyes on it to remember Red Baron was one of the games!)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 5:28:02 GMT -5
My experience with CRPGs starts with games from the second half of the 90s and going up from there. That means I never played any Ultima game, except for a brief stint with Ultima Underworld which I eventually want to get back to.
Without further ado, my favorite CRPGs are Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Deus Ex, Gothic I & II, Knights of the Old Republic I & II, Planescape: Torment, The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines.
Arcanum is your typical fantasy fanfare mixed with the Industrial Revolution. It's interesting to see how magic and technology clash, how there's a growing resentment from the humans towards the other races and the only dragons you get to see are, guess what, in a museum. NPCs also have daily routines and the writing is pretty damn good. It also makes a non-combatant player characters viable because the higher your charisma, the easier it is to talk your way out of fights and the more companions you can recruit to fight for you.
I don't think there's anything I need to say about Deus Ex and the Gothic games, except that the latter aren't as widely known or appreciated outside of Europe Germany and Poland and that's a shame. Still haven't found a game that gives you the same dopamine rush as you slowly go from being pushed around by literally everyone to owning the damn place.
Knights of the Old Republic I really enjoyed as I first played it - and I still think it's a very good game in its own right, but the Shyamalan-like twist is fairly lame and predictable with the benefit of hindsight and yes, it did blow me away when I was a kid... Because I was a kid. Knights of the Old Republic II has a more mature and personal story and less of a 'let's save the universe, giant space battle and everything' thing going for it. You're not saving everyone, you're just trying to come to terms with your past in a universe which is in a particularly sorry state of being - partly thanks to your past actions. It's a sort of deconstruction of the SW lore and universe done right, as opposed to the The Last Jedi. It also feels like a lite version of Planescape: Torment - no doubt because Chris Avellone worked on it.
Planescape: Torment is both the best written game I have ever played... And also the most verbose, so that's handy. It features my kind of fantasy setting, the one that is so weird and out there that almost feels like sci-fi. Both your companions and the NPCs you encounter are convincingly written, the game is set in the city of Sigil which is a sort of passageway to other planes and realities, everything about it feels fresh and exotic. It's a pretty trascendental experience as far as video games go.
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind features a similarly alien-looking fantasy world. The land of Morrowind is home to the Dark Elves, which in this game have more in common with the Houses from Dune or the Judaic tribes rather than anything you might know about them from other sources. Morrowind is officially occupied by the Empire, but the Noble Houses still have plenty of control over their land and stuff like slavery, which is verboten by the Empire, are still deeply rooted in their culture. It's very fascinating once you get into the game and the lore, but the gameplay and mechanics are clunky and your typical NPC conversation feels more like talking to an airport terminal rather than a real person. Once you get over that, it's really worth it.
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines I already wrote a review about, so yeah. From the creators of Arcanum, it can be played in third and first person and allows for many different approaches to gameplay. Engrossing atmosphere and beautifully written characters, once again.
I'd also like to mention Neverwinter Nights, not so much for the single-player campaign which was merely OK, but for its online component. If you were lucky enough to find the right server with the right group of people, there was fun to be had and it could prove quite addictive. However, there usually was a lot of admin drama, too, and all of these servers would die relatively quick. I'm not into online gaming anymore, but it was fun here and there.
Aside from the Ultima games, I also was never able to get into the Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Fallout games. So yeah, I'm lacking some of the basics there.
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Nov 29, 2018 10:12:15 GMT -5
I started with Japanese RPGs. Learned about Western ones through Nintendo Power, of all places; as y'all know many of the classic Wizardry, Ultima, Might and Magic, and Dungeons & Dragons games were ported to consoles.
I was severely intimated by this genre, initially (okay I still am). These games seemed absolutely massive and hard as balls.
Eventually, my family got a PC, and I obtained the Ultima Collection. Slowly worked my way through the series. I enjoy the fourth, fifth, and sixth installments the best. I don't think VII is as good as "everyone" says, I don't think VIII is as bad as "everyone" says. A fantastic overall series.
I put WRPGs on hold for some time, but eventually I got balls-deep into emulation and played through the classics courtesy of abandonware. Later, I obtained physical copies of the late-90s/early-2000s titans, and then, GOG.com was my savior.
I don't play WRPGs much anymore. They theoretically offer up significant replay value given their open-ended nature... but I find these games inherent exhausting and generally speaking a single playthrough of a given game is enough.
I can get more into things later on; I have to go to the library now lulz.
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Post by Ex on Nov 29, 2018 11:00:10 GMT -5
I actually played a bit of this game back in the late '90s. I remember thinking the interface was silly, because of how much room the bezel art takes around the main playing area: That said, I've read a few times that Bad Blood is supposedly a very good "Mad Max" influenced experience. Falling in line with stuff like Wasteland and Fallout to an extent. I too would like to give Bad Blood a proper try someday. I wish it was on GOG. But it's easy enough to find elsewhere. --- Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Deus Ex, Gothic I II, Knights of the Old Republic I II,Planescape: Torment,The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines I have played most of those, and I'll double-vouch for their quality. But let me add my usual Ex-criticism to a few, just to balance the universe... The reason I stopped playing Arcanum was because its dungeons were terrible bland mazes of tunnels and little else. Also the game gives the player zero direction. As someone who grew up on linear JRPGs, being given zero direction in an RPG is off-putting. Or at least it was for 2004 Ex. Maybe not so much these days. Deus Ex - I have nothing negative to say about this game, except perhaps its endings are ridiculously short. That's hardly a knock though, and Sarge really, really should play this. (For the record I have beaten this game... more than once... three times actually, Xeogred that says something.) I have not played any of the Gothic games yet, though I own all four of them. KOTOR - I tried to get into this back in 2007 IIRC. I remember quitting because the plot was boring to me, and I found myself in some sort of sewer system fighting glorified rats for too long. Granted my memory is a bit hazy there. It just didn't blow me away like it did so many others. I've considered giving it another try someday via its Android port. I own, but have not played, KOTOR 2. Planescape: Torment is a great book but a kinda boring game. If you go into it wanting to experience a very interesting story, you'll be good. Just don't get your hopes to high on the gameplay aspect. Morrowind - I think I played this back in 2006. I didn't play it for very long. It seemed promising, but it was another CRPG that gives you a huge world and no direction. Which for me at the time, wasn't what I was looking for in RPGs. I do think these days, I would appreciate Morrowind a lot more. The only thing stopping me from playing it now is so much competition from all the other RPGs I have. I do agree; the "airport terminal" quip made me laugh because it's so true. Bloodlines - I've beaten this one. No criticism to offer here, it's a damned masterpiece. Okay, well, I'll say if you don't patch the game with the latest community patch, you might have a bad time with bugs. Properly patched though, VtM:B is a blissful experience. That's another one that I think Sarge would really enjoy if he gave it a chance. I think Sarge tends to ignore darker-toned more serious games, perhaps subconsciously for reasons I do understand, but for real dude gotta play Bloodlines. tried to distill them down to their essence. They then took that core and built on top of it. That is a very solid, succinct way of explaining what DQ did.
The JRPGs VS CRPGs conversation would be a very long one. To keep it short; I believe there are things that JRPGs do better than CRPGs, and there are things that CRPGs do better than JRPGs - general. This has become less true in more recent generations, say the seventh and eight generations - as influences have bled between the two genres into a more homogeneous brew. With modern JRPGs I often see CRPG (or WRPG that is) influences. And the opposite is true as well.
I don't want to digress too far out, but I will say it's understandable why kids who grew up with consoles didn't play many CRPGs. I'll also say, that in general, CRPGs tend to cater more towards the adult gamer. Now is a perfect time for you to be getting into this genre. I have often seen graybeard gamers praising BaK online. As such I tried getting into BaK a few years ago, to see what the fuss was about. Well, I didn't finish it, or play it more than a few hours. The good stuff I saw, was that BaK has incredibly strong world building, with way above average writing. The world you explore, the people you talk to, that stuff is as good as any high quality fantasy novel. That said, the gameplay department was severely lacking IMO. There are obtuse adventure game segments, a lack of player direction, and worst of all - a bad combat system. I grew so tired of fighting these crystal things that I just quit playing the game: But let me add a caveat; I hardly knew what I was doing. Betrayal at Krondor is a RTFM experience. If I had read the manual, I likely would have had better bearings to deal with the combat. So I don't want to dissuade you from trying the game out, but I do want to persuade you to absolutely read dat manual first.
Wayyyyy back in the day, Red Baron, along with Falcon 3.0 and F-29 Retaliator, were the plane games that got me into flight simulators. I spent a lot of time with the ol' Baron. --- I guess I should add why I think you'd like Fallout and Icewind Dale: Fallout - In this game the world has been destroyed by nuclear war. You emerge from a vault - a nuclear fallout shelter - many years later. Your vault members have elected you to find a new water chip, because the water chip in your vault is failing. (The chip controls the water purification equipment in the vault.) So you emerge into the wastelands, searching for a chip. You must retrieve the chip - but after that, the rest of the game, and everything you choose to do, is all up to you. Yes there is an overarching plot, with a final boss, but there's so much optional do whatever you want in the middle. Fallout is extremely well written, has an amazing combat system, a fully realized world, interesting characters, terrifying monsters, intriguing locations, a badass character creation engine (SPECIAL), and so much more. Fallout is absolutely without question the best CRPG I have played. My favorite aspect was the complete lack of ethical forcing. By that I mean, if you want to be the good guy, you can be the good guy. If you want to be a maniacal bad guy, go right ahead. I'll just mention that the first two hours or so of Fallout is a little slow, it takes some time to learn the game, but once it gets going - and you understand how to play - you're in for the ride of your gaming life. As for the rest of the series; I nearly beat Fallout 2 but a save corruption bug killed my play (back in 2001), I have beaten and greatly enjoyed Fallout 3 (in 2008). It is with shame I have not played New Vegas yet. I own NV on 360 and plan to play through it next year. I suppose I'll play Fallout 4 someday when I get a PS4.
Icewind Dale - What would happen if you took Baldur's Gate and distilled it down to a much more focused dungeon crawler, with the exploratory/talky bits minimalized? This game. Icewind Dale is far more combat focused than BG ever was. If you just want to crawl big dungeons, kill a lot of monsters, get a lot of loot; this is the Infinity Engine game to play. It's also got wonderful background art, cool monsters, and some seriously sweet music.
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Post by Sarge on Nov 29, 2018 12:38:18 GMT -5
I definitely have Arcanum; I bought it off GOG many moons ago. It certainly looks pretty interesting! We'll see if I can stomach the flaws mentioned. I think everyone has different tolerance thresholds for different flaws in their games. Ex, I don't think I consciously avoid "dark" games, but it's definitely there. I dunno, I think unless it's done a certain way, it just tends to affect me a bit more than it might others. I think there often tends to be an oppressiveness there that's a bit unsettling... which is the point, I know! That being said, I definitely dug King's Field IV. Speaking of WRPG/JRPG crossovers, that's absolutely a case where a Japanese game on console was doing something like you'd see on PC. Also, Ex, was it just me, or does King's Field III move a bit faster than KFIV? Everything felt speedier when I played KFIII for a bit. Those sword swings in particular were quite fast. I've got all the Infinity Engine games via that big D&D Anthology Collection, and have the most time into the original Baldur's Gate. I was playing that through the Baldur's Gate Trilogy mod, which puts BG1 into the BG2 engine. I think those games are very solid (including the little bit of IWD2 I've played), and I've completely played through Pillars of Eternity, which is obviously too new to talk about. I really want to dig into Planescape: Torment as well. From everything I read about the game, you can go through much of the game without using combat skills at all, and in particular, you want to beef up your WIS and INT to get the really good and interesting dialogue options. Also, I don't know how far you got into KOTOR, but I'd argue it doesn't get good until you get off the first planet, which is around eight hours in. That's when it all clicked for me. Thinking about Morrowind, isn't there a project out there that is trying to put the game into the Skyrim engine? That would be a fascinating way to play through it, I'd think. That also reminds me of one of those "total conversion" mods called Ultima V: Lazarus, which recreated that game in the Dungeon Siege engine. Oh, man, Dungeon Siege! I'd almost forgotten about that game. Anyone got any opinions on the myriad Diablo-esque games that popped up around that time? Seems like you couldn't turn around for bumping into a variant on Blizzard's loot-runner. |
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Post by Ex on Nov 29, 2018 13:00:47 GMT -5
It certainly looks pretty interesting! I'll say that Arcanum is the best steampunk-realized game I've played. It's not you. KF3 is the fastest moving KF, which is one of the reasons it's my favorite KF. Unfortunately long time fans complained about KF3's speed to FromSoftware after it released, so FromSoftware made KF4 slower like KF1 & KF2 were. Damned vocal minorities! If you play PT as a purely intellectual experience, avoiding combat, and reading reading reading - you'll enjoy it I imagine. It's certainly an impressive RPG. It's just not impressive at all in the realm of combat, or varied settings. You'll spend the vast majority of the experience in Sigil. If I have to play a game 8 hours before it gets good... yeah I don't know about that. There were a lot. I played none of them. I can at least say that Nox, Sacred, Titan Quest, and Divine Divinity have often looked interesting to me. I own copies of them at least. My PC collection is both vast and neglected. |
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Post by Sarge on Nov 29, 2018 13:14:09 GMT -5
Well, eight hours does seem a bit much. I didn't think it was bad until that point, but it was a bit "meh". But like a lot of WRPGs I've played, it seems like the enjoyment often comes from when you start unlocking better and more varied combat options. When you see your character start to realize their potential (especially when you get your lightsaber), things get fun. It's the same deal with Suikoden II, honestly. It took even longer for that game to really grab me, but when it did, it didn't let go. I definitely have an appreciation for those games that start strong and don't mess around, though. But in some ways, there are RPGs that are a lot like Tom Clancy novels. Lots of setup that can be boring, but once it's all in place, you're on a roller coaster ride to the end. Unfortunately, it's often hard to tell when to draw the line, or figure out if a game will get better or not.
I have had Titan Quest for a long time. I didn't play it much, but my brother beat it back in the day. I was interested in the re-release on consoles, but have heard that the port was rather subpar. They also released an expansion for it recently, which is nuts! I've got the Sacred games as well, but again didn't put much time in. Sacred 2 always felt like it was dragging on my PC too much. Nox I haven't even touched, but I did find the discs for it a few years back. And I snagged Divine Divinity on GOG many years ago. Again. Yeah, I have a problem with buying games that I'm interested in and not playing them for long...
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