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Post by anayo on Mar 10, 2019 9:16:24 GMT -5
It has nonlinear level design and enemies with more complex patterns and behavior (such as accidental friendly fire and retaliating against each other). I wish you would play through the first System Shock. System Shock came out only a year after DOOM, but System Shock makes DOOM seem like child's play. That shouldn't prove too difficult. It got re-released lately on steam and maybe GoG so I can get it. And I was already interested in it based on stuff I had read online. But isn't System Shock more of an RPG kind of game? I always considered Doom more like Robotron 2084 on steroids. I get that. In 2015 I beat Doom I, then Doom II, then I started Final Doom and just puttered out. I have to take Doom in doses. But every few years after the fatigue wears off I'll want to come back to it.
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Post by Ex on Mar 10, 2019 10:39:07 GMT -5
But isn't System Shock more of an RPG kind of game? System Shock has some lite-RPG elements, but it's mostly about shooting things dead via a first person view.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 10:55:13 GMT -5
Yeah well, I disagree with System Shock having light RPG elements. Doom and System Shock couldn't be farther apart, first person shooting or not.
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Post by anayo on Mar 10, 2019 12:10:42 GMT -5
Yeah well, I disagree with System Shock having light RPG elements. Doom and System Shock couldn't be farther apart, first person shooting or not. You said it more overtly than I did, but yeah. I was under the impression that Doom and System Shock were very different beasts.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 15:32:26 GMT -5
The way I see it, pure FPSes and full-blown 1st person RPGs go something like this:
1) Wolf3D/Rise of the Triad/Doom/Quake -> 2) Blake Stone/Heretic/Dark Forces/Duke3D/Shadow Warrior/Blood -> 3) HeXen/Strife/CyberMage/Kingpin/Thief/System Shock -> 4) System Shock 2/Deus Ex
Basically, Wolf3D & Co. represent the purest form of FPSes with linear level design and power ups getting immediately activated as you walk over them, but you can't actually collect them and use them at a later time. Heretic, Dark Forces and all the Build engine games added an inventory system. Blake Stone added NPC interactions and a connected game world, where you can revisit maps you have already cleared. HeXen & Co. introduced a hub-based game design as well as various characters to choose from - other shooters like Rise of the Triad had done this already, but the characters didn't really play that different anyway, whereas you'll encounter notable gameplay differences depending on which class you play as in HeXen I and II. HeXen feels a lot like a 1st person Diablo, albeit with a bigger focus on those awful switch puzzles - and it was actually released before Diablo. In HeXen II your characters can also level up, although your stats go up automatically and it's barely noticeable really. You don't have levels and xp in Strife, CyberMage and Kingpin, but rather RPG-like design with entire towns worth of NPCs, quests and stores. System Shock doesn't feature NPC interactions per se, but rather you collect log discs and email - much like BioShock. It doesn't feature stats, xp or level ups, but it does have a complex inventory system and a strong puzzle component. The interface and combat are pretty much the same as in Ultima Underworld - meaning that it's slow and cumbersome. It's basically a sci-fi dungeon crawler. System Shock 2 and Deus Ex feature character customization, stats/skill upgrading and all that nice RPG stuff galore.
Again, you've got pure FPSes in the first group. In the 2nd group, you have either very light story/NPC interaction and/or an inventory system. In the 3rd group, you have a strong emphasis on the story and/or heavy NPC interaction and/or a level up/xp system and/or puzzle elements - they basically draw in equal measure from adventure games and RPGs. Games in the 4th group feature all of the components I mentioned for the 3rd group at once - and cranked up to 11 - and I consider them full-fledged RPGs.
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Post by anayo on Mar 10, 2019 19:55:51 GMT -5
@tsumuri
With all the FPS's you've played last year, you said what I'd have liked to, but more eloquently than I could have. Your main points I was already thinking were that System Shock struck me as more of a dungeon crawler, whereas Doom traces its ancestry back to arcade shooters. I guess like if Atari's "Black Widow" or Midway's "Robotron 2084" took place in a maze like Berzerk or Night Stalker (Intellivision). And if this hypothetical game happened to be in first person.
Anyway, I was thinking about getting an original copy of System Shock 1 and playing it on my Windows 98 PC, but according to eBay that version costs $25 minimum, whereas the Steam and GoG remake is $10. I can't really make sense of that. For instance I remember years ago that Grim Fandango used to command a high price on eBay. Then they came out with the remaster and the OG version fell in value so much that it's more economical to get the original. Anyone have any idea why an original disc only copy of System Shock is worth so much?
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Post by Ex on Mar 10, 2019 20:33:53 GMT -5
Yeah well, I disagree with System Shock having light RPG elements. System Shock doesn't feature NPC interactions per se, but rather you collect log discs and email - much like BioShock. It doesn't feature stats, xp or level ups, but it does have a complex inventory system and a strong puzzle component. I'd say any game where your characters gets to level up falls into RPGs. So by your own distinction System Shock is not actually an RPG. Thus at most it's a lite-RPG. I'll agree that System Shock is deeper than DOOM. But considering anayo said: One reason I’m so blasé about modern gaming is that I feel it promotes shiny visuals over deep interactivity. / By the time Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and Gears of War had become the new template, original Doom was starting to seem more interactive and deep despite its simpler technology. It has nonlinear level design and enemies with more complex patterns and behavior (such as accidental friendly fire and retaliating against each other). Since those bolded things mattered to him, I figured System Shock's enhanced interactivity and complexity - versus DOOM - would be a boon for his enjoyment. Maybe I'm wrong. I suppose we won't know until he actually plays through System Shock and has an informed opinion.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 10, 2019 21:23:51 GMT -5
So maybe it sounds like instead of heavier RPG elements, it has more adventure game elements?
I've still got System Shock on my list to play... along with many, many others that I probably won't make it to in my lifetime.
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Post by Ex on Mar 10, 2019 22:17:28 GMT -5
So maybe it sounds like instead of heavier RPG elements, it has more adventure game elements? I would agree System Shock has stronger adventure game elements than RPG elements, yes. Its more Strife than Ultima Underworld. Seriously though guys, this game is at least 85% just shooting the shit out of things. The trailer has some shooting bits in it:
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Post by Sarge on Mar 10, 2019 22:59:26 GMT -5
Huh, I have System Shock 2, but not System Shock. I'm going to have to keep an eye out the next time there's a sale on GOG.
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