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Post by Ex on Mar 23, 2019 11:39:34 GMT -5
Nintendo didn't siphon anything. They did not have any kind of monopoly on talent. They did monopolize third parties for a few years, but only on the home console frontThe bolded is exactly what I was implying. Nintendo's questionable business practices put a hurting on SEGA Master System's capabilities to utilize strong third party Japanese developers, during key potential growth years of the Master System's demographic targeting. Nintendo’s third-party license agreement for the NES/FC was totalitarian. Third-party NES/FC developers were only allowed to publish five games a year (supposedly to push them to make higher quality games). Games published on the NES/FC were exclusive to Nintendo for two years. This agreement severely limited third-party developers from publishing or porting their games to other 8-bit platforms. I don't agree with that in totality. I could list high quality Capcom and Konami games on NES, that we never saw in the arcade - or at least not the same realization of the game. (Honestly the NES/FC versions were sometimes the better version.) Although "high quality" is subjective granted. Again we would be going into purely subjective territory there. Personally speaking I could at least make a list of 100 great-to-good NES games, whereas with the Master System I'd struggle to make more than a top 12 list using the same qualifier. I believe that is because the best Japanese 8-bit console developers were wrapped up developing for the NES/FC. SEGA had a few good developers in house as well, but because of the FC's dominance in Japan, the majority of high talent leaned in its direction. I believe there is some truth to that statement. I also believe if the available talent pool were wider for SEGA, more "best and most experienced devs" could have been allocated to the Master System for a longer period of time. I find it hard to believe that SEGA only seriously cared about the Master System for one year. They put far too much money into the system's development, marketing, and production for me to believe that's the case. I can buy the argument that SEGA had a limited amount of quality developers, and chose to allocate their best ones into arcade titles during that era. But that's just talking about SEGA themselves. I still believe that if Capcom, Konami, Sunsoft, Squaresoft, Tecmo, Data East, Hudson Soft, Rare, Enix, SNK, and other NES/FC developers hadn't been shackled by Nintendo's totalitarian publishing agreement, we would have seen games by some of those companies published on the Master System. Be they exclusives or ports. Edit: Golden Axe Warrior is a weak game. The dungeon design is ass. The overworld is dull. It's inferior to Zelda in every manner. But the combat is the worst part. It's so unsatisfying. There's no sense of weight or impact. Fighting anything is an absolute chore. I agree with everything you said there. It just took me a while to make the realization all of that was true. My inner 9 year old Master System lover wanted to believe. Alas gold covered shit is still shit.
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Post by toei on Mar 23, 2019 11:55:10 GMT -5
Even if you could name 100 good to great NES games, that's still less than 10%. It still makes good NES games the exception. I'm also pretty sure you'd have to pad the list with a lot of dubious games to reach 100, but that, as you pointed out, is strictly subjective. Personally, I constantly see bad NES games given a pass for things that would never be forgiven on another system, mostly because they're long-standing "classics" and have an established reputation that pushes people to minimize their issues, or people have been playing them since they were kids and either don't notice or minimize the flaws and problems. I see people on message boards dismiss lesser-known games entirely for having "moon jumps" or any other unpopular variation of jumps, but Castlevania gets a pass for its godawful stiff weirdo arc jump? Or the ridiculous knockback everytime you get hit, causing the character to literally jump backwards to his death all the time in the most unjustified trolling fashion?
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When I say the got serious around '87, I'm referring to the software specifically. The quality and ambition of the Master System games they made during those last two years of its Japanese run is markedly higher, and there are things that suggest that developers were allocated more time to work on them than before, including various comments in interviews. Developers were also starting to get a better grip on what worked and didn't, so naturally they made better games.
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I played Golden Axe Warrior years ago, and remember souring on it as well once I got deeper into it. There were things I liked about it initially, like the fact it had towns, and the way some items were hidden about, but it was probably also the combat that ended up pissing me off. I had a similar experience with the two Neutopia games. Then again, I'm not a fan of pre-Link's Awakening Zelda, so of course I'm gonna like the clones even less.
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Post by Ex on Mar 23, 2019 12:03:23 GMT -5
Even if you could name 100 good to great NES games, that's still less than 10%.You are correct. As such, it stands to reason if the Master System had the same number of quality third-party developers publishing games for it, as the NES/FC received, the law of weighted average would reciprocate in the Master System's favor as well. Thus I'd be able to put together a list of 100 great-to-good SMS games as a result. As a long ardent fan of the Master System, I wish that were the actual case.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2019 12:20:40 GMT -5
Let's face it, the quality-to-crap ratio was not good in the 8-bit era. I'd say nearly every system had its share of garbage, although the overwhelming success of the NES led to a situation similar to the Wii. Lots of folks trying to cash in with what amounted to shovelware.
And 100 games, just on the US side, is an easy target to hit.
As an example of the dearth of great games on Master System, I think it's worth looking at the list that Retro Sanctuary put together. They actually did a top 100, and just looking at the aggregate quality, there are very, very few titles on that list that hit the quality level of their NES list, choices I wouldn't make aside. And while one might be tempted to chalk it up to nostalgia (especially given my reputation around here!), many of the NES games in question I didn't have access to until I was well into my adult years.
Anyway, I actually played through another SMS game, and it's Sonic Chaos. I left some impressions before, but I'll add a few more. While the levels are short, there are lots of opportunities to stock up on rings and get to those bonus stages. I'm not sure it makes any difference getting the emeralds, though? The ending was pretty bare-bones. The game also got more fun when I wasn't ring-hunting, although again, the stages were ridiculously short. You can hit the goal without even trying hard in around a minute.
Adding to my frustration is how small the ring hit-boxes are! I mean, the Genesis version has easy-to-collect rings, but this one? You've got to be lined up just right. I honestly don't understand why you'd make the primary collectible so difficult to collect.
One other gripe is the amount of slowdown. There's a lot of it. A lot of it. Just jumping causes slowdown, and it's not even very consistent slowdown, either. It's very annoying, and makes the somewhat finicky platforming even more finicky. The SMS can do better than this! Perhaps the issue is because of Aspect handling development, not Sega. The SMS Sonic has slowdown as well, but feels much smoother overall. Maybe another part is that the game wasn't properly optimized for the larger display area of the SMS vs. the Game Gear version, although Wikipedia says that the Game Gear version was released a month after the SMS one. They'd have to be developed side-by-side, I'd think; it's not like there are major architectural hurdles to clear there.
I know that's a lot of negative, but I also don't think Sonic Chaos counts as a bad game. I just think it really suffers in comparison to its 16-bit brothers. It also doesn't help that I'm not a massive fan, with my opinion of the Genesis games topping out at around an 8/10. While this is a cut below, it's still an admirable effort to squeeze the experience on an 8-bit system, and it was probably even more impressive if you were playing it portably. I'd say this one clocks in at a 6/10, maybe a 6.5. Definitely worth your time if you like Sonic, though!
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Mar 23, 2019 12:34:32 GMT -5
NES vs. Master System isn't really a fair fight to begin with. Nintendo basically owned that generation. (Fourth gen is a great three way battle, however.)
Sega's third gen hardware was also split between the SG-1000 and SMS. The former is on par with early "black label" style NES/Fami, but again, vastly inferior.
I wonder what people would think of the Master System if Phantasy Star never existed. So much of the console's reputation rides on that one game. Like, what's everyone's "second favorite" SMS game?
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Post by toei on Mar 23, 2019 12:42:10 GMT -5
Let's face it, the quality-to-crap ratio was not good in the 8-bit era. I'd say nearly every system had its share of garbage, although the overwhelming success of the NES led to a situation similar to the Wii. Lots of folks trying to cash in with what amounted to shovelware. And 100 games, just on the US side, is an easy target to hit. I think a big part of it is that a lot of genres were just beginning to define themselves. Once a genre is firmly established, it's much easier to produce an example of it that is at least decent, because developers at large have a good idea of the big dos and don'ts. For example, look at the very first wave of fighting game post-SF2, where even major developers like Namco put out mediocrities games like Knuckleheadz, then compare it to how even the most run-of-mill devs knew how to make a serviceable fighter by 1994. I think that phenomenon happened more frequently in the 8-bit days, and resulted in a lot of failed attempts at doing something good, rather than just plain shovelware (of which there was also a lot, and still is). bonesnapdeez My favorite SMS game is Zillion 2. I haven't found anything on the NES that fast and intense and arcade-like. I like Kenseiden a lot, too. Again, pretty unique game. It gets compared to Castlevania, but it's really nothing like it; if anything, it's closer to Genpei Toma Den, if that game wasn't borderline unplayable. I also like most games Kotaro Hayashida was involved with. He was probably the closest thing to a star developer on the Master System, having created Alex Kidd and acted as lead designer of Phantasy Star and Zillion.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2019 12:55:53 GMT -5
toei : I agree with that. Many of the genres weren't codified, and a lot of devs were throwing stuff against the wall to see what stuck. Sometimes you need a trailblazer to see what works, and it's tough to whip that up out of thin air. I think there are quite a few genre-defining games that likely were the results of a happy accident. And of course, some were products of incredible forward thinking. I don't think your example of SFII was just a happy accident, for example: Capcom had experience with the original Street Fighter, and clearly thought long and hard about what would work well in that context. I have to wonder if they ever envisioned it blowing up like it did, though. Thinking of top 100 games, I feel like I should probably do a feature one of these days...
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Post by toei on Mar 23, 2019 13:15:12 GMT -5
toei : I agree with that. Many of the genres weren't codified, and a lot of devs were throwing stuff against the wall to see what stuck. Sometimes you need a trailblazer to see what works, and it's tough to whip that up out of thin air. I think there are quite a few genre-defining games that likely were the results of a happy accident. And of course, some were products of incredible forward thinking. I don't think your example of SFII was just a happy accident, for example: Capcom had experience with the original Street Fighter, and clearly thought long and hard about what would work well in that context. I have to wonder if they ever envisioned it blowing up like it did, though. Thinking of top 100 games, I feel like I should probably do a feature one of these days... Akira Nishitani's thinking with Street Fighter 2 was mostly "Street Fighter is not fun. How can we make it fun?" He was also handed the project as an outsider, not having worked on the first game, so it's great that it turned out as well as it did. If you've never read his interview on shmuplations, I really recommend it. He's outspoken and interesting. Parallel to that, the people that had actually made the first Street Fighter had also thought long and hard about how to fix it, and the result was Fatal Fury. So without the failure of the original Street Fighter, it's unlikely either games could have existed. But I was really talking about how most of the developers who tried making their own SF2-clone immediately after it came out failed to varying degrees (the exception being SNK, but that's also because they weren't actually trying to copy SF2 - they were trying to correct SF1). I kind of like Konami's Martial Champions, but I'm in the minority; no one likes Namco's Knuckleheadz or Sega's Burning Rivals, and most people will admit that the first Mortal Kombat was not really a good game, to name a few.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2019 13:31:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I was just going off on a semi-tangent from your original point. You're absolutely right that once the blueprint was out there, folks tried and failed for a while to get it right. I'll make sure to check out that interview. Also, just as a quick thought experiment, I listed out the number of NES games that I, personally, would give a 7/10 or above to... and it clocked in at 156 games. There were a lot I left out that I know have great reputations elsewhere (I didn't include most shooters, or Tetris!), and there were a lot of games I'd throw into the 6.5/10 category I omitted as well that are excellent for a deep dive into the NES library.
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Post by toei on Mar 23, 2019 13:46:56 GMT -5
I think I'm a lot more difficult, or at least, the range of games that really appeal to me is smaller, because I know for a fact there isn't one console for which I could name as many games that I actually like, and I have played and tried a lot of games, too. I don't know it's there's 20 NES games I'd really defend, and I doubt that number's going to increase significantly in the future, because there's only a handful I still want to play that I haven't gotten around to (Punch-Out, Batman, Contra, Kabuki... whatever it's called, you know the one... and I think that's it? Maybe a few shooters.)
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