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Post by Ex on Mar 1, 2020 17:41:35 GMT -5
other western-made cultural products are popular there Except for electronics, right? Are any western made electronics hugely popular in Japan? Japan has prided themselves for decades on being the world's best electronics producers. Japan doesn't have an equivalent Hollywood or Disney producing AAA budget movies and shows, so it makes sense they'd import western levels of quality in that regard. But Japan does have extremely strong electronics companies (Sony for sure), and extremely strong video game companies (Nintendo for sure). It makes sense that Japanese gamers would feel some level of patriotism towards Sony or Nintendo versus a gaijin console. Before Xbox, none of them should have been. However Microsoft spent a lot of money, through three generations, trying to break solid ground in the Japanese market concerning the Xbox/360/One. Microsoft courted Japanese developers to produce games that would specifically appeal to the Japanese market. And Microsoft published western games in Japan as well. Just have a look at how many games Microsoft published in Japan themselves: tinyurl.com/yxyuyo7uAnd yet, the Xbox still pales mightily behind Sony or Nintendo as far as presence is concerned.
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Post by toei on Mar 1, 2020 17:43:20 GMT -5
Sarge And besides, the 360 might have had a lot of Japanese RPGs, but they had none of the franchises. Blue Dragon isn't exactly Dragon Quest. Plus even the PS3 only sold about half what the PS2 did in Japan, as this is about when handhelds really took over.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 1, 2020 17:45:28 GMT -5
That generation definitely marked what I consider the start of the fall of the JRPG, at least on consoles.
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Post by toei on Mar 1, 2020 17:57:43 GMT -5
other western-made cultural products are popular there Except for electronics, right? Are any western made electronics hugely popular in Japan? Japan has prided themselves for decades on being the world's best electronics producers. Japan doesn't have an equivalent Hollywood or Disney producing AAA budget movies and shows, so it makes sense they'd import western levels of quality in that regard. But Japan does have extremely strong electronics companies (Sony for sure), and extremely strong video game companies (Nintendo for sure). It makes sense that Japanese gamers would feel some level of patriotism towards Sony or Nintendo versus a gaijin console. Even if that were true, patriotism does not equal xenophobia. Better consoles than the 360 have remained niche in Japan, including most of Sega's. NEC's Turbo CD had a million RPGs, and it only sold about slightly less than 2 million units (vs 1.5 mil for the 360). And there are tons of great cultural products from around the world that don't get mainstream success in the US, either. And Japan has a very strong cinematic tradition, but that's a whole different subject.
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Post by Xeogred on Mar 1, 2020 18:01:13 GMT -5
Don't forget, as goofy as it sounds, how MASSIVE the original Xbox was physically and all. And Japanese don't have all the space in the world like the US or whatever. I wonder if that was a factor too, but I feel like I used to hear about those concerns in the 6th gen.
And as someone that keeps up with modern gaming a bit more than some of you, I can just say that yeah... we are now THREE generations in and the Xbox has consistently done horrendous in Japan every time. So it's never going to happen over there. I also more recently heard that Sony's always had Europe on lockdown too. So maybe we shouldn't single out Japan here actually, it might be perhaps easier to deduct that the Xbox just simply has no mass appeal to anyone outside the US in general. lol
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Post by Ex on Mar 1, 2020 18:11:45 GMT -5
Well, this Japanese Xbox fan's first reason for why he thinks Xbox doesn't sell in Japan, is because it's not made in Japan: He then goes on to say that Microsoft's marketing sucks. I remembered years ago reading Yoichi Wada himself complaining that Japan's gaming culture is too self inclusive for its own good. Here I bothered to track down the article: "In the last five to 10 years, the Japanese games industry has become a closed environment, with no new people coming in, no new ideas, almost xenophobic. It is now slightly behind western counterparts." ( source )
I could track down other sources for my claim, but it's really pointless to do so. You won't agree and I won't change your opinion. Likewise you won't change mine. Just a waste of time both ways. And I'm really tired of arguing with you about stupid shit this weekend. So if you think I'm wrong and ignorant on the issue, I accept that is what you believe.
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Post by toei on Mar 1, 2020 18:17:20 GMT -5
Don't forget, as goofy as it sounds, how MASSIVE the original Xbox was physically and all. And Japanese don't have all the space in the world like the US or whatever. I wonder if that was a factor too, but I feel like I used to hear about those concerns in the 6th gen. And as someone that keeps up with modern gaming a bit more than some of you, I can just say that yeah... we are now THREE generations in and the Xbox has consistently done horrendous in Japan every time. So it's never going to happen over there. I also more recently heard that Sony's always had Europe on lockdown too. So maybe we shouldn't single out Japan here actually, it might be perhaps easier to deduct that the Xbox just simply has no mass appeal to anyone outside the US in general. lol The X-Box series hasn't done horribly in Europe, in fact the 360 did decent numbers (though it still came in third), but Sony is killing both Microsoft and Nintendo out there. It does seem like the furthest away you move from the US, the less popular it is.
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Post by Xeogred on Apr 22, 2020 19:28:33 GMT -5
While it's been commonly known forever now that Hironobu Sakaguchi was THE Final Fantasy guy, I keep stumbling upon Yoshinori Kitase lately and it keeps looking like maybe he was the leading man behind some of the big hitters back in the day, like FF6 and FF7.
Hironobu Sakaguchi Final Fantasy IV — Director
Chrono Trigger — Design | Supervisor
Final Fantasy VI — Original story | Producer
Final Fantasy VII — Design, original story |Producer
Final Fantasy VIII — Executive producer
Final Fantasy IX — Scenario |Producer
Final Fantasy X — Executive producer
Yoshinori Kitase Chrono Trigger — Co-director, scenario writer Final Fantasy VI — System Director, event planner, scenario writer
Final Fantasy VII — Director, scenario writer
Final Fantasy VIII — Director, story, system designer, event scene direction Final Fantasy X — Producer, chief director, scenario writer - Final Fantasy VII Remake — Producer
_______________________________ In Chrono Trigger's case, I think thanks to toei informing me months back when I replayed CT, or last year during my DQ4 and DQ1-2 playthroughs, it was fascinating to see that CT is an interesting fusion of Hironobu Sakaguchi and Yuji Horii. I think their large influence is very apparent throughout the whole game. Now I think it gets weirder with Final Fantasy. I remember once reading long ago that Sakaguchi's mother passing had a lot of influence on his storytelling. There is a pretty strong recurring theme of life and death in most of the popular FF's, especially FF4, FF6, FF7, and FF10. All of which he certainly had a lot of influence over. But then there's Mystwalker's Lost Odyssey, which is Final Fantasy X 2.0 in everything but name. Clearly seemed like a pet project of Sakaguchi and a lot of the same story beats and themes are presented there too. Now I realize tragedy is a common story device for epic tales and all that, so maybe I'm digging a bit too deep here. But I think his influence on a lot of these is obvious.
But Kitase keeps getting more interesting to me and seems like it's maybe by his hand, that some of these games like FF6 and FF7, are as awesome as they are. Digging into FF7R's credits and most modern games is probably a fool's errand, but while he's just listed as a producer, my current running theory is that he was VERY hands on with the project and might just be why it turned out so incredible, in my humble opinion. I think it adds up that FF7 might kind of be his baby, or the project that really propelled his career and status at Square. While FF7R has three directors credited, including Nomura, when you look up a lot of the behind the scenes videos or promotional things that lead up to this release, it was Kitase who was out there front and center a lot. Which I don't really recall happening much over the years despite him being a producer for decades over there. So I think there's a key link between him, the original FF7, and this new remake.
I know that especially back in the day, I'm sure most development teams and leads wore plenty of hats around the office. And it would be unfair to try and throw a single person all the praise for multi team pieces of art like video games. But I just always find these really intricate details fascinating to think about and try to dig into. Knowing exactly who did what is something I love figuring out in my older age, when it comes to games, anime, etc. Because then I love tracing their key influence in other projects or whatnot. I am guessing that overall, Sakaguchi was kind of the chief of the crew and threw down the blueprints from game design to story points and characters, then Kitase was the real workhorse who made some of these things really come to life, while Sakaguchi does his thing checking in from time to time to see how things are going.
Sometimes some creators need a few checks and balances though, which might be the case with Kitase and FF8, haha. Note, I'm a big fan myself, but it was a very strange experimental late 90's Square Soft game for sure. FF8 had an anniversary last year when the remastered port came out and he had some comments about it in some articles. So I think FF8 was ALL Kitase at the helm. But seeing his credits there for FFX kind of surprised me, something about that game feels like it was more of a Sakaguchi dominated thing. It's all interesting to me.
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Post by Xeogred on May 10, 2020 12:04:17 GMT -5
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Post by Xeogred on May 11, 2020 18:45:24 GMT -5
I have reviewed this thread a bit over the last few days. I am clearly the only bigger fan of FF7 here left (dunpeal being the other). We got Ex giving his rankings I think three times over and many conversations repeated. Guess that's the amusing issue of bumping and reviving threads, rather than creating new topics sometimes.
I'm knee deep into my FF7 replay after finishing up the remake recently. Now I've been bouncing off a lot of discussion with another friend online. And yesterday I watched a movie cut of Crisis Core that had impeccable timing, the story in that game got really good about midway in when the events start crossing over with things you see in the original game and helped clear things up for me. But there was still more answers I wanted and thanks to the Reunion mod / retranslation, I've finally reached my catharsis on the original FF7 and one of its most insane plot points.
I played through THAT scene today. Not that scene earlier in the game... THAT scene, with Tifa saving Cloud... This was the NUMBER ONE thing I was excited to see again in my replay, with the Reunion retranslation. And it finally did it justice.
As if possessed by Hojo himself, I took extensive notes throughout today and while playing some of these parts. I don't expect anyone here to read any of this, but for my own sanity and posterity I'm dumping it here too. Crisis Core & FF7 spoilers, but more importantly, madness ahead. You may become Sephiroth himself glancing over this:
CLOUD & COMPANY REACH THE LIFESTREAM AT THE CRATER:
- Cloud was just a grunt during the Nibelheim and tried to help keep Tifa safe when Sephiroth goes insane (after learning he was just a monster/experiment of Jenova). - Zack gets wounded by Sephiroth, while Cloud picks up the Buster Sword potentially killing Sephiroth there (revived by Jenova?). Sephiroth stabs and fatally wounds Cloud. - Hojo and Shinra patch up Zack and take in Cloud to be infected with Jenova Cells. - Crisis Core - Zack rescues Cloud from the labs and defies Shinra, leading to his eventual death. - Tifa PTSD? - Sephirtoh's real body was crystilized by the Lifestream/Northern Crater the whole time. All first disc encounters are Jenova. Took 5 years for the Jenova/Sephiroth clones to start moving towards Northern Crater for the "reunion". - More than likely was Sephiroth controlling Jenova the whole time though and by extension killed Aerith himself. - Sephiroth is the child of Lucrecia (Vincent's Mother?) and Hojo. - Aerith is the child of Professor Gast and Ifalna. - Cloud was never First Class Solider. Tifa finds him wounded by the train station and gives him the Avalanche mission. She is confused by his memories but relunctant to pry into it. - The Lifestream/Crator unleashes the Weapons. Cloud falls into the Lifestream suffering severe Mako poisoning, washes up on Mideel with his mind broken. - Cid and crew have to find four Huge Materia
*TIFA HELPING REPAIR CLOUD'S MIND*
- Ultima Weapon attacks Mideel, Cloud and Tifa fall into the Lifestream. - Cloud joined Soldier wanting to be recognized and impress Tifa. - Tifa thought they were friends early on, but Cloud was an outcast thinking they were immature and never hung out with her and her friends. - Cloud asked Tifa to meet him at the water tower. But thought she hated him and would not show. - Current Tifa "While it's true we weren't close, after you left the village I thought about you a lot"... - Tifa's mom died. She and her friends went to Mt Nibel, but her friends left her behind while Cloud followed her. They fell off a cliff and townsfolk found them, Tifa's father blaming Cloud for bringing Tifa there. Tifa was out for seven days. - Cloud was "so frustrated and angry that I'd been too weak to do anything." After that, thinking Tifa always blamed him for what happened. - Cloud got into fights a lot and was angry for awhile. Then heard about Sephiroth. "If I could just get stronger, even Tifa would have to notice me" - (both go back to figure out Nibelheim event. Cloud remembers "Zack") - Like Crisis Core. Zack attacked Sephiroth but was defeated. Cloud saw Zack and Tifa wounded, picking up the Buster Sword, he wounds Sephiroth, furiously (his idol). Sephiroth killed Cloud's mom.
(Nibelheim flashback again, correcting it) - Cloud felt ashamed he never made it into Soldier. - Made sure his helmet was on to hide his identity from Tifa and the village. - Tifa "You did come and keep your promise" - Cloud could not finish off Sephiroth at the reactor and is then mortally wounded. But Cloud was strong enough to knock Sephiroth and Jenova down the reactor (into Mako/Lifestream pool?) - Tifa saves Cloud's mind and they exit the Lifestream.
Cloud: "Hojo's Sephiroth Copies are nothing special. The process that was used to create them is almost identical to the one that's used to creat Soldiers. The only difference was that the subjects involved were weak-willed." "You see, those who are a good prospect for Soldier aren't just bathed in Mako... Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells". "For better or worse, only the strong-willed are chosen". "It has nothing to do with the Reunion. It's just that if the process is used on someone who's weak-willed like me, they lose themselves". "A man born from Jenova cells, Sephiroth's will, and his own weaknesses. That's the Cloud that you all knew. I was merely an inhabitant of my illusionary world. But I don't need illusions anymore. It's time to stop living a lie and to start being myself." Tifa: "You mean the stubborn rebellious Cloud?" (everyone happily jokes and celebrates Cloud is back)
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Note by Tifa's piano after getting Cloud back (getting her final limit break item)
"...Burning with rage, I headed to the Mako reactor to kill Sephiroth. He was nowhere to be found. In his place, I found you, Tifa, collapsed inside. I felt saving you was far more important than going after Sephiroth. Inside the reactor, there were others still breathing, but I was only able to save you. As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall that the one giving orders was a scientist named Hojo. He ordered the soldiers to round up those who had survived for "the experiments". I had no idea what kind of experiments he had in mind, but I wasn't about to hand over my dearest student. I carried you on my shoulders, down the mountain and out of the village. Along the way, I used the Cure spell on you many times. I then departed for Midgar to find a doctor who could treat you. I don't like that city at all, but my magic wasn't helping. I left you in Midgar with a doctor I could trust, and set off again on my travels. I was worried about you, but I'm not the kind of person who stays in one place for too long. Have you fully recovered? Are you feeling better? How many years have passed since then, I wonder? I've returned to the village, but what I see here shocks me. The whole place is back to normal, except for some odd-looking people in black cloaks loitering around. The village reeks of Shinra, but I don't intend to go after them. You may think that I'm running away, but, the trust is, I'm tired of being caught up in their silly, little afairs. Well Tifa, I will have to leave now before whoever lives here gets back. I don't have much time. I feel sure that you'll find this letter and, with that certainty, I have hidden a gift here for you. I think it will come in handy. Although I would very much like to give it to you in person, having one of my students see me all frail and weak is too much to bear. I can't even jump anymore. I pray that you will continue to refine the techniques I have taught you. Take care, my most beloved student. - Zangan"
Helps explain how Tifa ends up in Midgar.
She eventually one day finds Cloud by the train tracks (dropped off by Zack? or rather, a damaged Cloud dragging Zack's Buster Sword landed up by Sector 5 and all. Seeing Tifa is probably what triggered and completed his illusionary memories and persona). Cloud spouts a lot of stuff she knows isn't fact, but at that encounter she can't bare to correct him or figure out what's wrong. She must help patch him up and this is when she tells him about Avalanche. Queue the beginning of the game!
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