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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 15:50:07 GMT -5
Why would I play DOOM again when I could play Quake? Why would I play Quake again when I could play Quake II? Why would I play Quake II again when I could play Half-Life? That sort of thing. Can't agree with this statement. For example, there are a ton of Metroidvania game nowadays - or whatever you want to call them - but fans of the genre always come back to Super Metroid or even Metroid. It's not that new games aren't good or didn't introduce new gameplay elements, but the classics often have a charm to them which isn't easy to recreate - and I'm not talking about nostalgia. Besides, I'd say the gameplay in the shooters you mentioned is different enough to appeal to a wide range of people. If you're someone who needs an actual story in video games, you might like Half-Life but not Quake. If you hate platforming or cerebral activies that don't involve shooting, you might actually dislike Half-Life - or at least part of it. And the gunplay feels very different in all of those games, too.
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Post by Sarge on Dec 12, 2018 16:02:39 GMT -5
I will say that I vastly preferred DOOM to Quake, although Quake was still a good time. Still, I also see Ex's point here. There are certain genres that seem to get better with technological advancement, and the FPS genre is one of them. I'd throw Western RPGs, racing, and sports games into that bucket as well (for the most part).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 16:09:13 GMT -5
The FPS genre certainly did evolve insanely fast alongside the exponential growth of computer technology in the 90's. When you stop to think about it, we went from Wolfenstein 3D to Quake it only four years. Many AAA games today are lucky if their entire development cycle is that long.
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Post by Sarge on Dec 12, 2018 16:27:10 GMT -5
Yeah, the whole industry was moving incredibly quickly then. It probably also helped that you had coding gurus like Carmack pushing the envelope.
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Post by Ex on Dec 12, 2018 17:13:28 GMT -5
I also see Ex 's point here. There are certain genres that seem to get better with technological advancement Yes that's basically what I was saying. As @gunstargreen pointed out; FPS games were the primary driving force behind PC hardware evolution in the '90s. Riding that wave was a big deal at the time. Plus some of us appreciated the gameplay advancements that latter FPS entries offered versus the basic simplicity of DOOM. I for one prefer FPS games with an interwoven narrative, but that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 18:08:02 GMT -5
All the narrative I need! I love stuff like Jedi Knight and Half-Life and they were pretty formative games for me, but I find myself going back to the old ID stuff a lot more often as an adult. I guess they have the same appeal to me as golden age arcade games, pick up and play without much need to get invested. But I'm a little biased here as I've always been a gameplay-first gamer, and while I love a good story driven game as much as the next guy I sometimes find myself sympathizing with John Carmack's (kind of silly) quote, "Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." Speaking of which, I'm sure most people here have already read Masters of Doom, but if you haven't the 25th anniversary is a good excuse to. It's easily one of the most fascinating stories of the seat-of-your-pants world of early PC game developing, and the meteoric rise that took place when PC's went from business machines to serious game platforms. I'm kind of thrilled that the retro-FPS is finally starting to make a comeback in the same way retro platformers have in the indie scene.
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Post by Xeogred on Dec 12, 2018 18:55:56 GMT -5
EDIT: Guess I missed two pages and nobody cared that I mentioned Doom 64 EX already, oh well. On higher difficulty levels Doom is something of a combat chess, managing health and ammo along with assessing and prioritizing threats based on their known capabilities... all while blitzing around at high-speed with an arsenal of varied weapons each with their own purpose. It's a beautiful thing. Don't get me wrong, later FPS titles are still great, but Doom is Doom. Not much out there has managed to match its timeless design for me. It's up there with Super Mario Bros. as a game that just got everything so right that even decades later it's still sort of a standard for designers to reference and aspire to. In many ways Doom is very much like a shmup. On higher difficulties and tougher wads, you do have to get methodical about your approach to enemies and groups. I also love the style of no mouselook from this era (and I don't cheat with jumping). These tighter controls actually just make me feel even more in control and utterly precise with my actions, if I die I know why and where I messed up. The controls and feel of the game is just straight up literally perfect. Every weapon and enemy is iconic with a purpose.
The FPS genre is one of the more consistent genres over the decades to me but nothing beats the purity and flawless weapon/monster balancing of Doom and the individual personality displayed in the maps. The charm of "maps" and a singular talented mapper has been long lost from the genre for years.
Romeo's Twitch for a few archived streams, he showed off one of the levels from "Sigil".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 19:59:21 GMT -5
I saw the stream live, it was a little hard to get a feel from it because he was playing badly, probably purposely because he didn't want to show off that much. I'm looking forward to playing it in February, it'll be a good birthday gift for me.
Even though I know he didn't want to be constrained by the old limitations I kind of wish he'd designed it to work with vanilla Doom. It would have really made it feel like a true expansion without the need for a source port. I'll probably run it in Crispy Doom at first to get the closest experience to DOS.
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Post by Ex on Dec 12, 2018 21:50:46 GMT -5
John Carmack's (kind of silly) quote, "Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." As smart as John Carmack is, I always thought that was a short-sighted quip. Depending on the game genre, story can be hugely important. Clearly this man doesn't play many adventure games or RPGs. Furthermore, compare the success of Half-Life 2 to the less enthusiastic reception of DOOM 3. Both of those 2004 FPS titles had impressive tech for their time, but HL2's interwoven narrative clearly won it critical and commercial accolades that DOOM 3 didn't share. Also, John is a bit biased if we're being honest. He's an engine designer, and that's what powers the gameplay, he's not invested in the story that surrounds the engine. He's impressed by speed and interactivity. (Ergo his love of Ferraris and space rockets.) All that said; I totally get that DOOM is very easy to just jump into and have a good time with quickly. The same can be said of Pac-Man, Tetris, or Mario Kart. It's just classic, simple, fulfilling gameplay. And that is something an adult with limited free time can appreciate certainly.
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Post by Xeogred on Dec 12, 2018 22:44:22 GMT -5
I saw the stream live, it was a little hard to get a feel from it because he was playing badly, probably purposely because he didn't want to show off that much. I'm looking forward to playing it in February, it'll be a good birthday gift for me. Even though I know he didn't want to be constrained by the old limitations I kind of wish he'd designed it to work with vanilla Doom. It would have really made it feel like a true expansion without the need for a source port. I'll probably run it in Crispy Doom at first to get the closest experience to DOS. Yeah I watched the whole hour tonight with dinner and stuff. He was definitely taking his time and he probably doesn't want to show it all off like you said, though I also wouldn't be surprised if he's just not the most skilled player. One of the best level designers but perhaps not the best player, haha. Who knows? Is there any footage of him kicking ass somewhere? I love how he talked about being a fan of pistol starts with no saving during levels though, that's legit. And I'm very excited to see what E5M7 will be, since it sounds like his biggest map ever... yet I know he won't overblow it like some mappers do and make maps annoyingly big.
I have no issues with Doom 2 unlike some others but Doom 1 definitely has an awesome unique vibe to it, so I can't wait to see if he can truly capture the feel of the original with these maps. From what I saw of his E5M3 here yeah, it looks promising.
I should give Doom Builder a look someday.
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