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Post by Ex on Apr 11, 2021 18:54:32 GMT -5
Lately I've noticed smatterings of discussions concerning the Saga series. These are games that I am familiar with from a distance, and own copies of most entries. However, I've only played two entries personally; The Final Fantasy Legend and Final Fantasy Legend II. The latter I played in 1990, got a good ways into, but did not finish. As for The Final Fantasy Legend, I have been messing around with it for the past two nights, and am starting to grow fond of the game. I ended up actually reading the manual, because despite how old and primitive it is, TFFL still has some opaque mechanics. I'm thinking of trying to finish the whole GB trilogy this year, as they are pretty unique. (Yes I know part 2 and 3 have DS remakes, but I'd rather play the originals first.) SaGa is generally considered Akitoshi Kawazu's baby, not sure what everyone thinks of him. He's always struck me as a bit of an auteur. Kawazu seems to value innovative game design and mechanical interactions over exposition and storytelling. Though the best game I've finished that he had a strong hand in writing was Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers on Wii. I very much enjoyed that game. Also the Mana entry he produced, Legend of Mana... you could tell it was SaGa influenced. I enjoyed beating LoM as well. I'd love to see some of the other games he was involved with like Racing Lagoon, Wild Card, and Blue Wing Blitz get fan translated into English someday. Anyway SaGa is still going. The most recent entry was Imperial SaGa Eclipse in 2019. But we're here to talk about the older games. It looks like the last SaGa entry Kawazu directed Unlimited Saga on PS2 in 2002. He has been a producer of the SaGa series, and other Square Enix games since then.
So what do you think? What have been your experiences with the SaGa games?
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Post by toei on Apr 11, 2021 19:18:09 GMT -5
I think Kawazu lacks something essential for any creative type, which is the ability to visualize. He can come up with some new mechanic, but he can't anticipate how it's going to actually play out once it's in the game. As a result, his games are mostly mediocre. I've finished FF Legends 2 and 3 (3 isn't like the others), Romancing Sa-Ga 3, played through most of SaGa Frontier, and maybe more that I'm forgetting. Oh, and Final Fantasy 2, which was the first game he helmed. None of them were good. I also don't think he cares about things like creating an interesting world to explore or telling a good story.
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Post by Ex on Apr 11, 2021 20:16:57 GMT -5
an interesting world / telling a good story Not to diverge too much, but which JRPGs do you believe accomplish these criteria?
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Post by toei on Apr 11, 2021 20:46:47 GMT -5
an interesting world / telling a good story Not to diverge too much, but which JRPGs do you believe accomplish these criteria? Dozens, if not hundreds. Pretty much 99% of the RPGs I've enjoyed.
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Post by Sarge on Apr 11, 2021 21:01:35 GMT -5
So the thing with Kawazu is that his influences are very firmly from D&D. In fact, the reason people didn't like Unlimited Saga (although it does have a few ardent fans) is because of the board game style it adopts. It's very much an acquired taste, and I respect him for just going for it.
I think the series as a whole is uneven. As far as narrative goes, I just don't think he cares much for linear storytelling. The Game Boy games are the closest to "stock" JRPG, although they introduce what I think are some very interesting mechanical twists on the usual formula. I appreciate the idea of abstracting away EXP in favor of more "natural" character growth. It feels awfully random, sure, but at the same time, the game has mechanisms in place that you truly can't go off the rails. Final Fantasy Legend II is one of my favorite RPGs of all time, full stop. The introduction of the robot class is just super cool, the way you equip weapons to boost their stats, halving the uses but letting said uses be restored in an inn unlike everyone else.
I also have a ton of respect for FFL. Yeah, it's rough around the edges, but for what I'm pretty sure is the first portable JRPG, it's remarkably well-formed from the jump. Interesting mechanics, and it has just enough story to hang with most other typical JRPGs at the time. Also, chainsaw bug. Wish I'd known about that one back in the day!
Of course, much of this is rooted in his work in Final Fantasy II, which... I don't actually think is bad, but the concept needed more time in the oven. And FFII leaned quite heavily into story, and I thought for its era it was quite good. Of course, Square never gave him the reigns to another in the series (which is probably for the best), but his mad experimentation probably didn't belong there anyway. It's good for him to have his own series.
I think there's a ton of nostalgia for the Romancing SaGa games in Japan, and I admit I don't have a lot of time into them. I like the PS2 game from a mechanical standpoint, but much like the rest of the games in the series tend to get (and remember this is a remake of the first SNES game), it leans heavily into multiple paths and scenarios. It can feel a bit disjointed, much like how Legend of Mana can feel disjointed from a narrative perspective (but that game is sublime anyway). He really loved his multiple characters and whatnot.
I've always bounced off of SaGa Frontier (I only finished Blue's and maybe Emelia's line?), which shows all the telltale signs of not being completely finished. The remaster is supposed to fix some of this, so I'm really looking forward to it. But SaGa Frontier 2? Sublime. It looks gorgeous, and while it keeps a lot of the series staples (especially skill "sparking", introduced in RS1), it also distills the plot into two primary threads. It feels easier to follow despite chronologically jumping around through history.
Notably, after Unlimited and the RS remake, the series went very dormant here. Those SaGa remakes for DS would have been swell (and are thankfully playable now), but I think I still prefer the original Game Boy game of SaGa 2. I can't say for sure on FFL3, since I never finished it (or even really played it for very long), but remaking that game to fit more firmly in the "house" style of SaGa feels like it would improve things.
The recent stuff, I know nothing about. I should probably get Scarlet Grace. Also, The Last Remnant is a secret SaGa game.
TL;DR - The series is very much an acquired taste.
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Post by Ex on Apr 11, 2021 21:27:11 GMT -5
SargeI can definitely see the D&D influence, even in the first FFL. "Acquired Taste", absolutely. I think anyone coming into the SaGa stuff for unique world design or dramatic plots is bound for disappointment. (IME it's the rare JRPG that doesn't have a cliche world and trope-addled plot.) It's the unique game design concepts that I find intriguing. Like in the first FFL, being able to feed dead enemy meat to your monster party member to change their form, is really innovative for 1989.
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Post by Ex on Apr 12, 2021 10:09:50 GMT -5
Guess I'll also use this thread as a progress report, because I'm playing this currently: (Using the Japanese cover art, because it's superior to the USA one.) Last night I started this over for the third time. I kept changing my party, trying to decide what I like best. I ended up sticking with two humans, a mutant, and a monster. I kind of wish I'd done one human, two mutants, and a monster at this point, because my one mutant has evolved to be incredibly strong already. But I'm not starting over for a fourth time! I did read the manual for this game, because some of its sub-systems are less than intuitive. I mean, this is a Akitoshi Kawazu game design (though he worked with three other designers on various aspects), so that's to be expected. Last night in less than two hours, I managed to acquire the sword, shield, and armor needed to unlock the tower, and saved my game on the first floor of the tower. I haven't been using a walkthrough at all so far, but I may end up needing to do so. Not for understanding how to develop my play strategy or finding secret gear, but for game direction. The game direction has been very nonlinear so far. With old JRPGs, I do not enjoy just wandering around a world map getting into endless fights, while trying to figure out where that one NPC is I have to talk to, to trigger the next plot development. I have incredibly little patience for that these days. So far that hasn't been a problem in this particular JRPG, but we'll see.
Anyway fun GB JRPG thus far. Yes I recently bought a PS4 and loads of JRPGs for it, yet here I am playing a 32 year old black and white game instead. I just go with the flow man.
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Post by Sarge on Apr 12, 2021 10:22:49 GMT -5
Yeah, mutants are really good in this. In repeat runs, I tended to leave monsters behind and go with a two human/two mutant team. Humans do have the most growth potential, though. You have to be careful doing it, but they can go well beyond what the game display caps off at.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 12:45:29 GMT -5
What a coincidence, I just started The Final Fantasy Legends last week, and I'm currently at the fourth world (hope that isn't a spoiler!).
Though I like the Final Fantasy Legend series (especially part 3, the only one Akitoshi Kawazu did not take part in) and Final Fantasy II, I hate the SNES's Romancing SaGa series and the SaGa Frontier series on the PlayStation.
A few months ago I tried Romancing SaGa on the SNES for the umpteenth time. I quit after a couple of hours; the game is a bug-ridden mess (I know, so is the Final Fantasy Legends series), gives no clues on where to go or what to do, and actually punishes you for exploring (as side quests become unavailable the more monsters you defeat).
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Post by Ex on Apr 12, 2021 13:59:58 GMT -5
What a coincidence, I just started The Final Fantasy Legends last week, and I'm currently at the fourth world (hope that isn't a spoiler!). Is this your first time playing TFFL?
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