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Post by Ex on Dec 7, 2022 10:21:42 GMT -5
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Post by toei on Dec 7, 2022 18:51:37 GMT -5
I beat King's Knight at the beginning of the year. The obscure requirements is one of the more unfortunate design quirks of the '80s*, but the game is actually pretty good. It plays well once you understand how the power-ups work. One of the more interesting shooters on the NES, even.
*Reminds me of The Ninja on Master System, which I thought was cool until I realized you would never beat the game without a FAQ
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Post by Moulinoski on Dec 8, 2022 11:26:36 GMT -5
This is going to make some people angry but… Secret of Mana for me. I want to like it and I recognize that there’s a good game there but it and I are on different wavelengths. I hate the ring system. I hate having to wait around for my attack to recharge so I can deal more than just a pittance of damage in what is otherwise an action RPG. I hate having to use the same spells over and over to make them just somewhat useful. I hate taking long breaks from it and not knowing what I was doing. I hate the early part of the game with the witch and the forest (it does get better after that). While I’m a little better with it now, I don’t really like having a party system in an action RPG. I got to the final boss gauntlet but stopped because I got tired of playing it. I hate that it’s still clawing it’s way around my head telling me to finish it.
I tried Trials of Mana several times in the past (including the time period before it was given an official localization) and I didn’t really care much for it either. Just about the only Mana game I can say that I’ve enjoyed in Adventure of Mana and to a lower degree, Final Fantasy Adventure.
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Sonic 1 and 2 are lesser examples of good games that are “awful”. I like them but I have no delusions of ever finishing them, much less with all the chaos emeralds. To this effect, I prefer Sonic CD. Even though I always get the bad ending, at least I’m able to get any ending. I do like Sonic R so maybe I just have poor taste in Sonic games (and have zero skill). I always preferred Mario over Sonic anyway. So, Sonic 1 and 2 aren’t so much awful as they are too difficult for me even to this day.
I could backtrack and analyze what makes them difficult and “awful”, though. Sonic automatically runs, so naturally you want to go as fast as possible. This can end up leading you to your demise, however. The view is also not very conducive to “going fast” as it’s often difficult to dodge anything in time without memorization. I had Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles, 3D Blast, and Sonic R on PC as a kid. My favorite one was Sonic R. The speed at which Sonic goes lends itself naturally to the type of game Sonic R is (it’s just a shame it made a horrible first impression on the Saturn). Anyway, it’s evident I couldn’t be bothered to memorize anything. I remember playing Sonic 3 & Knuckles the most and enjoying that one the best but I never could finish it and it’s the one I’ve least replayed over the years thanks to it not getting too many re-releases. So, anyway, you essentially get punished for going fast and that’s kinda lame for a game that’s billed on speed. I like the 3D perspective mini games but there’s something about them that makes them fall short. The half pipe is good except for the frame rate and that obstacles show up too late sometimes. The balls one, the controls are rigid but otherwise is better than the half pipe. My favorite is the one from Sonic CD but the level design can sometimes be little wonky, requiring some real tight turns. Now, this would all be fine if only I could practice them individually… but I can’t (not without save states). So that’s lame. Sonic Mania, everyone’s darling throwback game, commits the same “sins”.
This all said, I still manage to have fun anytime I pick up Sonic. Anytime I pick up Secret of Mana, I just want to put it back down and do something else.
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Post by Kazin on Dec 8, 2022 11:45:14 GMT -5
This is going to make some people angry but… Secret of Mana for me. I want to like it and I recognize that there’s a good game there but it and I are on different wavelengths. I hate the ring system. I hate having to wait around for my attack to recharge so I can deal more than just a pittance of damage in what is otherwise an action RPG. I have having to use the same spells over and over to make them just somewhat useful. I have taking long breaks from it and not knowing what I was doing. I have the early part of the game with the witch and the forest (it does get better after that). While I’m a little better with it now, I don’t really like having a party system in an action RPG. I got to the final boss gauntlet but stopped because I got tired of playing it. I hate that it’s still clawing it’s way around my head telling me to finish it. I tried Trials of Mana several times in the past (including the time period before it was given an official localization) and I didn’t really care much for it either. Just about the only Mana game I can say that I’ve enjoyed in Adventure of Mana and to a lower degree, Final Fantasy Adventure. It took me years - nearly two decades! - to finally enjoy Secret of Mana because of the above reasons and the one I don't often hear people complain about, which is the camera. You have to move very close to the edge of the screen to scroll your view, which can cause you to get hit quite easily by an enemy you can't even see until it's on top of you. My kingdom for a version of Secret of Mana that scrolls as the character moves, dangit! I understand this is because you're intended to play multiplayer, but ehhhh I can't imagine playing through the whole game with a friend or two anyway, so it's an annoyance for me. And yeah, leveling up magic sucks, and it's pretty much required, too. However, I did eventually learn to like the game (though I don't love it), mainly because I've always enjoyed action RPGs, and the aesthetics of Secret of Mana have always wowed me. Other than the dwarf cave music which is awful, the music is fantastic, and the graphics are really well done and pretty, as well, which is why I kept giving the game chances. I've beaten Final Fantasy Adventure, was unable to get into Trials of Mana (though I plan to try that one again), and haven't played any of the others in the series. It's so interesting, because Sonic CD is the game that it took until like a month ago for me to learn to like, while I love love love Sonics 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles, and Mania. Never really been able to get into Sonic R, either. I would say the games are less about speed, and more about managing momentum - your instinct is to go as fast as possible, but as you say, that can get you killed. Getting hit, though, isn't too big a punishment because of the ring system - as long as you have 1 ring, you survive, and even if there are no other rings around when you get hit, you can always grab one that you just dropped if you're quick. I can understand having your momentum coming to an instant halt because of enemy you couldn't react to in time being annoying, but for whatever reason, it's never bothered me. The spin dash was a necessary addition, though, and it's something I miss in Sonic 1 when I go back to it. As for Sonic CD, if you play it like the other Sonics, you'll get through it very quickly without much fuss, and as a result it's one of the most boring games you'll ever play (imo). The levels are not designed to be run through like the other 2D games, they're designed to be explored and puzzled out where you can time travel in them (and then find the things you have to break to get the best ending). It's the most "Mario" style Sonic game I can think of, so it makes sense that you prefer it to the others. I just took a long time to get into the exploring mindset you need to be in to enjoy the game, since as soon as I start moving Sonic, I want to speedrun the level, which you shouldn't do if you want to get the best ending lol. Once I learned how to play it the way the designers intended, I ended up really liking the game (in my case, on the Genesis Mini 2, finally, which just came out. I had the freaking Sonic Gems Collection on Gamecube, and couldn't even get into it there!). As for the Chaos Emerald stages... Other than Mania, I don't really care for them (and even that one is just... fine, I guess). Sonic 1s are just too difficult to be any fun, Sonic 2s later stages basically have to be memorized to be beaten, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles's are just dull, if a bit easy. Sonic CD does require some tight turns as you say, and I sure thought I hit the floating boxes several times when the game didn't register it, so imo the hitboxes of those things is too small (that last bonus stage in Sonic CD required me to use save states because the boxes turn super tightly super quickly and you don't have a ton of time to get them all).
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Dec 8, 2022 11:55:44 GMT -5
Largely agree on the Sonic series. I always considered them second-tier (if best) platformers. And the chaos emerald element is poorly implemented, in literally every single entry. So many Genesis "classics" exude a strong style over substance vibe. They're loud and bold and flashy and edgy, but completely lacking in the gameplay department.
Secret of Mana though...... I pretty much like everything about that game.
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Post by Ex on Dec 8, 2022 12:03:59 GMT -5
The first three Sonic games on Genesis are amazing platformers, exuding strong style and substance. They are also easy platformers. Except for the "collect all the Chaos Emerald" stuff, which I agree was not well implemented. Not well implemented not just in the first three Sonic games, but in pretty much every Sonic game I've played. I've beaten nearly every 2D Sonic game out there at this point too, and largely enjoyed all of it. It's the 3D Sonic games I often fall off of. The only 3D Sonic entry I've truly enjoyed was Colors on Wii.
When I first played through Secret of Mana in the late '90s, I thought it was amazing. I beat the game solo, then beat it again co-op with a friend. Many years later when I went to replay it co-op with my wife, neither one of us enjoyed the game and ended up dropping it. There really is a lot of tedious design, as there's a lot of game design working against what should be a breezy action-JRPG/beat 'em up affair. A couple years ago I tried playing through Seiken Densetsu 3 and quit after a few hours, as it was even worse than Secret of Mana insofar as clunky game mechanics. All that said, I own the Secret of Mana remake and Trials of Mana remake on PS4, and I will give those a chance someday. Maybe they are more streamlined and polished to play.
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Post by Xeogred on Dec 9, 2022 1:02:37 GMT -5
Secret of Mana though...... I pretty much like everything about that game. You and me both brother.
I can't really refute that the attack charging system is kind of weird and gets more obnoxious the deeper you get into the game, since it has to charge even more haha. SD3 fixed this by just having landed attacks charge up your meter.
I don't think one really has to grind the magic out too honestly. I beat the game via emulation as a kid and didn't even realize magic leveled up the more you used them, until so many years later. Secret of Evermore's system of leveling up magic is the real offender, since I think you have to use rare resources in some way to do it. So you can only level up a few things. Something weird like that.
As for Sonic, I freaking love those games aside from 3 being kind of half and half. I also like 3D Blast a lot. But the 2D games I replay a fair bit. I think people just either get the controls or never really warm up to it. But I've never had any gripes with the momentum and Sonic's movement. The music is amazing and you get so much more environment variety than a Mario game. But hey, they have their own strengths. I love me some 2D Mario as well.
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Post by toei on Dec 9, 2022 1:33:32 GMT -5
I still like the Genesis Sonics to a degree, even though I can only enjoy pure platformers for like 10-15 minutes before I get bored... and yes, it's an easy game, and I have plenty time to avoid danger most of the time. And even if you run into something, that's why you have rings. It's a very forgiving game.
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Dec 9, 2022 15:19:40 GMT -5
Secret of Mana though...... I pretty much like everything about that game. You and me both brother.
I can't really refute that the attack charging system is kind of weird and gets more obnoxious the deeper you get into the game, since it has to charge even more haha. SD3 fixed this by just having landed attacks charge up your meter.
I don't think one really has to grind the magic out too honestly. I beat the game via emulation as a kid and didn't even realize magic leveled up the more you used them, until so many years later. Secret of Evermore's system of leveling up magic is the real offender, since I think you have to use rare resources in some way to do it. So you can only level up a few things. Something weird like that.
As for Sonic, I freaking love those games aside from 3 being kind of half and half. I also like 3D Blast a lot. But the 2D games I replay a fair bit. I think people just either get the controls or never really warm up to it. But I've never had any gripes with the momentum and Sonic's movement. The music is amazing and you get so much more environment variety than a Mario game. But hey, they have their own strengths. I love me some 2D Mario as well.
Evermore's magic system is broken in various ways. For instance, "crush" is a cheap offensive spell that you get in the game's second world, and once you level it up you're set for the rest of the game.
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bosh
HRG Enthusiast
Posts: 207
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Post by bosh on Dec 10, 2022 3:36:17 GMT -5
I like Sonic 3D Blast. Not love, but it's cool. I don't see what's wrong with jumping by pressing up, either. It's easy enough to get used to. But I also don't mind tank controls, and I think using the rear button to hit behind you in Double Dragon 2 was a great idea, and I know most people hate learning unusual control schemes. I'm gonna try to think of some examples. There's a ton of "classics" I find vastly overrated (all of Castlevania pre Symphony, Super Metroid, A Link to the Past, etc etc) but none of them are awful, and most aren't even bad. I am not in the same boat around older Castlevania games being overrated, but I also don't rate them as high as others until the Genesis/SNES games. There are very few things in this world that make my blood boil as bad as the stairs in the NES games. The amount of times I have fallen through them to my death is insane. What makes it worse is some of the older titles put enemies by the exits of stairs so if you hit the controls wrong to "dodge" taking a hit, you fall to the stairs you are firmly planted on. I hate those stairs so much
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