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Post by anayo on May 1, 2018 18:52:46 GMT -5
I love games from the 80’s and 90’s. But I’ve been somewhat self conscious about it, since I can’t tell whether it’s just because Sega and Nintendo imprinted on me during childhood, or if games from 30 years ago really possess some enduring quality that’s since been lost. Am I like one who enjoys reading poems, stories, and jokes written in a dead language? Or am I just clinging to simpler times?
I thought a good way to answer this question would be to gauge younger players’ reactions to the games I grew up with. The only chance I’ve had to do this was with the 8 year old son of my friend from college. We played Super Mario 64 DS and Super Mario World together. I expected him to balk at the graphics, but surprisingly his first impression was really enthusiastic, since Mario is still adored by kids today. What made him lose interest was an aversion to even the gentlest challenge level.
My young friend can control things in video games sequentially, but not in parallel. So walking left or right is doable. Jumping is doable. Doing either at the same is too much. So if a stage calls for getting a running start to clear an obstacle, it’s like he’s trying to simultaneously pat his head and rub his stomach. At the start of each stage my young friend would nose dive off the nearest cliff or charge headfirst into the first enemy, over and over. Finally he lost interest and we put the SNES Classic away.
I don’t think he and I are so cognitively different from each other, since he gets all A’s in school and is an adept soccer player. But I do recall getting as far as Ice World in Super Mario 3 at age 5. So I don't think there's some decline in reflexes or mental ability. I think it's due to something else, namely the abundance of games today. In the 80’s and 90’s you’d get a game or two for your birthday and Christmas at most. I didn’t know many people who had more games than you could count on both hands. So video games were a precious commodity. I’d play whatever I had until my thumbs were sore, even if it was brutally hard. But today the floodgates are open and games are everywhere now, so generation Z can just "channel surf". My young friend had a bin of almost 30 other games nearby. From what I’ve read in the headlines, annual video game revenues have ballooned in recent decades, supporting my idea.
“Do you have a television?” “Yeah, you know, we have two of them.” “Wow, you must be rich.” “Oh, honey, he’s teasing you, no-one has two television sets.”
Another difference is that it’s becoming more commonplace for parents to have grown up playing games themselves. Parents in the 80’s and 90’s often didn’t understand what games were because they didn’t grow up with them and consequently exhibited dismissive attitudes toward kids’ enthusiasm for games. Chibby has often told me he grew up viewing video games as the “forbidden fruit”. It's probably why he has a game cave full of old Nintendo, Sega, and Sony consoles now. But what about the vice versa? Suppose games hadn’t been a forbidden fruit? What if they had been sanctioned and even subsidized by mom and dad? Would gaming have seemed as attractive under those circumstances? Or would it have been on equal footing with other kid activities, like action figures and riding bikes?
Has anyone else tried letting younger people play 8 and 16-bit games to see their reaction? How did it go?
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Post by Ex on May 2, 2018 10:08:36 GMT -5
Am I like one who enjoys reading poems, stories, and jokes written in a dead language? Or am I just clinging to simpler times? The aesthetics are certainly unique to their era, but I think the core entertainment value is still there. It's like if a kid today preferred 50s or 60s music to today's modern "music". Sure the production of today's modern music may be technically better, but that doesn't mean the composition or craftsmanship necessarily is. In general people are addicted to "newer is always better", which is false logic out the gate. But in a capitalist society that creed is inherently indoctrinated to drive the commerce agenda. Thus by default the average consumer is going to ignorantly see older media as inferior, including retro games. Yourself not falling for that trap is not a failing of your own tastes by any means. What made him lose interest was an aversion to even the gentlest challenge level. I think you sussed this out fairly well for yourself. It's true that a kid doesn't have to spend a lot of time on one game anymore, especially when they can download new games straight out of the ether for free all day every day. That fact coupled with a holistic decline in default game difficulty en masse begets the less patient modern gamer. Also as most kids play smartphone games these days via simple touch input, having to coordinate multiple button presses to formulate complex movement patterns is a tad beyond their ken. I certainly think any young kid could learn to play hardcore retro games these days, but having the impetus to do so? Not so much. Which is a dire shame IMO. Throwing oneself against a seemingly impossible challenge until its conquered builds character, to say the least. Chibby has often told me he grew up viewing video games as the “forbidden fruit”. I believe for some older gamers what you describe acts as a continued subliminal drive. It makes sense that as an adult you're going to want to horde what your parents denied you as a child. However for some of us that isn't quite the case. My parents made no effort to cull my gaming time growing up (the opposite if anything), and yet my taste for gaming and game collection persists into middle age. (My reasons for continuing to game as seriously as I do are varied, and a bit self indulgent to go into here.) Has anyone else tried letting younger people play 8 and 16-bit games to see their reaction? How did it go? When my daughter was seven I gave her a SNES with a lot of games. She tended to focus on the explicit Mario stuff primarily. She enjoyed them (especially Super Mario World and Mario Paint), but I don't know if she beat any of them. At twenty years old she only plays modern smartphone and PC games now. I never see her emulating anything, despite the fact I setup a bunch of emulators and ROMs on her laptop. Not too long ago I let a young nephew-in-law of mine play some NES games with me. He enjoyed playing them with me (2 player stuff), but afterwards he returned to his tablet. He had no interest in playing NES games by himself. I think as the years go by, there will always be a small subset of open minded gamers, who will want to explore this medium's past, and enjoy doing so. But by and large modern gamers will only play modern games. That's just as true for the film and music industry though ("newer is better").
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Post by Sarge on May 2, 2018 10:31:41 GMT -5
At a minimum, I do think the indie push and the smartphone/tablet medium has at least cultivated less of an aversion to "retro" graphics. So many of those games ape the aesthetics of classics gone by. While mobile gaming often puts a bad taste in my mouth, the indie side of the equation often has extremely solid gameplay that may inspire players to explore the roots of those games. I don't actually get much opportunity to observe the next generation playing older games. I think it's just human nature to want to try the "latest and greatest". Even other media (books, films, etc.) likely fall into this trap. But they are also much more mature as a medium; particularly literature, where we actually teach the classics to the next generations because of their cultural importance. I don't think gaming is at that level, and it may never be, but I appreciate attempts to preserve what is there, and will proselytize to those who will listen.
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Post by anayo on May 6, 2018 9:26:08 GMT -5
You just jogged my memory about something. Around 1997 my mom would listen to an oldies station full of songs from the early 60’s. (I assume my Mom listened to these in the 70’s and 80’s since she wasn’t alive when any of these came out.)
This must have planted seeds in my mind, because late last year I just spontaneously began singing these to myself. It made me want to go rediscover them on YouTube. They’re catchy and fun, so I guess I’d like them even if I had never heard them before. But something about being exposed to these during childhood gives me a sense of significance and belonging. Which is kinda ridiculous since I was born after the Berlin Wall fell. By the same logic, though, I also got my first NES and Sega Genesis in 1995. By that time the former was an antique and the latter was about to go obsolete.
I’m just trying to be introspective enough to avoid the pitfalls of lacking any self-awareness. Let me illustrate with a friend of mine who’s really passionate about Star Wars. This friend is about 5 years younger than me, adores the original trilogy, and has spent close to a few thousand on movie-prop quality lightsaber replicas. He also harbors has a deep-seated hatred of the J.J. Abrams trilogy. He often sends me half-hour long YouTube rants about why Finn, Rey, and Kylo Rent are stupid. The new trilogy isn’t without its flaws, but I thought it was OK. I don’t really get his crusade to prove why The Force Awakens and Last Jedi are trash. Even if they were trash (which I don't believe they are), I've been through this with other cherished series like Sonic, Megaman, and Castlevania. It's not that I'm critical of people who are more passionate than me about Star Wars - I recently attended a promotional event at a comic book store with Star Wars cosplayers. I’d never put together an elaborate costume like that, but I adored the time and energy these fans put into it. I’m equally in awe of Greg Dietrich, who built a life size replica of the Millennium Falcon cockpit:
But this friend of mine can’t seem to talk about anything other than Star Wars. Don’t misconstrue me and think I’m being critical of Star Wars fandom, what I mean is that this guy is a little behind with learning how to relate to people, so he’ll go on and on for hours about stuff that only of interest to himself. I know a few other people like this. I’m actually rather predisposed to it myself, so I feel like I have to be really vigilant to avoid being self-absorbed. What I’ve found most validating about this hobby is when people who aren’t passionate about games see something in my library that reminds them of childhood and they ask to see it, just to take a brief stroll down memory lane. It affirms that this isn’t just some narcissistic pursuit that only appeals to me. For some reason it's important to me to stop and check on that from time to time.
Yeah, I was just surprised since I had been expecting the main cultural barrier to be graphics. I remember in the early 2000’s when 3D graphics started looking really nice, Metal Slug 3 for the XBOX received a mediocre score from a prominent video game magazine because it was 2D. I don’t really think that would happen today. The atmosphere that made Castlevania: Symphony of the Night on Playstation so controversial just hasn’t persisted into 2018. I was just surprised to realize the main difference comes from the overwhelming glut of games to play, not the more advanced technology of those games.
If they wanted to mirror that “You have two televisions?!” scene from Back to the Future 1 in Back to the Future 2, the kids in the 80’s cafe watching Marty play Wild Gunman would probably grin and say, “Wow, that’s cool.” then get bored after 5 minutes and pull out their own pocket devices with thousands of games on them. The games might not even necessarily look any better than Wild Gunman, they’d just have so many to choose from that there’d be no reason to spend hours mastering any one of them.
My parents and grandparents were pretty indulgent. That’s the reason I got a Gameboy, Sega Genesis, N64, and so on. I’m just saying there was a generation gap during the 80’s and 90’s. Perhaps it’s like how some older people have a hard time getting used to computers. Or how older generations abhorred rock n’ roll, but now it’s completely mainstream. This caused some contention from time to time, even with my elders who enjoyed doting on me and my siblings.
My friend's son was the same way. I think he enjoyed Mario 64 and Mario World more because it was an activity he and I were doing together. But I think he just did it to interact with me, not because he likes SNES or N64. Then again, I remember being intensely interested in games as early as age 5. For instance I would watch my Dad play Doom on his computer then try to draw pictures of it at school. I would doodle Vectroman and Lemmings in my notebooks and pretend I was in the middle of House of the Dead and Zelda: Ocarina of Time while playing outside. It just consumed a lot of my time and interest. Maybe it’s like how I taught myself so much Japanese because I find it inherently fun to spend hours cataloging and memorizing so many grammar, vocabulary, and cultural rules. Most people find that torturous. Even in the 90’s I had friends who liked video games but weren’t quite passionate about them like I was. That probably comes down to individual taste more than a generation gap.
For me, I’d like to believe this preoccupation with the past fits in the context of historical interest, of wanting to understand how things were. There’s this part in the CNN documentary series “The 60’s” where Tom Hanks describes how exciting color television felt when he first saw it as a kid. Granted, I sorta kinda got a taste of that since my parents let me watch “The Wizard of Oz” around age 5 and I got to see a grayscale Kansas morph into a technicolor Oz. This was at an innocent age where I was still pretty new to the world and didn’t understand that what I was seeing was from the Great Depression. So to an extent it imprinted on my upbringing kinda like those early 60’s Elvis and Beach Boys songs. (Incidentally when I first saw Steven Spielburg’s “E.T.” around 1995 as a 5 year old, I thought it was present day. Might explain why I’m so nostalgic for a decade I wasn’t even alive to see.) But the Wizard of Oz was just one VHS tape in a library of overwhelmingly color films. So I can’t completely relate to Tom Hanks. I have to imagine how that must have felt.
There was a similar account where Akio Morita, co-founder of Sony, writes in his book “Made in Japan” about how his father got a record player sometime in the 1910’s or 1920’s. He described how his family would gather around and marvel at this thing that produced music for them to listen to. I’ll never be able to relate to that because I grew up with FM radio and cheap cassette tapes and players. The future has proven to be surprisingly boring because when everything is available, nothing feels special. So it’s as if I have time travel back to when the “noise floor” was at the level of a Sega Genesis game to feel impressed again.
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Post by Xeogred on May 6, 2018 10:07:38 GMT -5
Another difference is that it’s becoming more commonplace for parents to have grown up playing games themselves. Parents in the 80’s and 90’s often didn’t understand what games were because they didn’t grow up with them and consequently exhibited dismissive attitudes toward kids’ enthusiasm for games. Chibby has often told me he grew up viewing video games as the “forbidden fruit”. It's probably why he has a game cave full of old Nintendo, Sega, and Sony consoles now. But what about the vice versa? Suppose games hadn’t been a forbidden fruit? What if they had been sanctioned and even subsidized by mom and dad? Would gaming have seemed as attractive under those circumstances? Or would it have been on equal footing with other kid activities, like action figures and riding bikes? Has anyone else tried letting younger people play 8 and 16-bit games to see their reaction? How did it go? ... The future has proven to be surprisingly boring because when everything is available, nothing feels special. So it’s as if I have time travel back to when the “noise floor” was at the level of a Sega Genesis game to feel impressed again. Gaming is my era and I'm no expert on entertainment mediums prior, but I wouldn't be surprised if videogames evolved a bit how comics and movies did over the decades. Potentially reviled or misunderstood by older generations but the younger people grow up with it as it becomes normalized and more accessible. I was born in 1987 so I easily lived through the 90's of being that nerdy outcast where you were laughed at or looked down on for liking videogames, usually, from parents or family to people in schools. Now look who's laughing now? Quite ironic and fascinating. At the same time there's a bit of jealously in me that misses that element of being an outcast and being one that was in a more niche' medium. My favorite hobby has been invaded, haha. It's all different now though and I was going to say something similar to your last sentence I quoted. It'll be interesting to see how younger people born in the era of the internet perceive time. I've been interested in this a lot lately because when you look back on the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's, they all each look like completely different worlds. You can't totally say that about the 2000's and on. If we really dove in socially and all sure but you guys probably know what I'm getting at. Mega corps are now real and don't seem to be stopping, everything and generations worth of information is available at our finger tips, anything is so accessible now. I have seen some people that look at the Super Nintendo and don't necessarily see it as something "old". At the same time like others are saying, there will always be (the majority probably) a lot of people that just stick with the herd and follow current trends showing no interest of looking into the past or doing their own research on things. I don't know if you guys think the internet ties into all of this in a way, but I think I do. While it's an amazing thing, stuff like this community itself being an example, I am beyond glad that I lived my childhood without it. Then again maybe I would be less obsessed with it if I grew up with it instead and it was just a plain ol' "normal" thing from the beginning of my life? Funny to think about. We should all stop sometimes to consider, we are living in very strange and fascinating times and a major historical turning point... right now. For better or worse. A bit more back on subject, it's still a tough one to say. My sister just turned 25 and I wouldn't really say she's a gamer but, she naturally grew up watching or playing some games with me at times. She has an old SNES and has gotten more into than ever before this last year or so, to the extent she's trading in or seeking out some new games to play. And I've been happy to see how good she's gotten at some games (can't say that for mom, heh). I've been thinking if I could score a miniSNES for her that would be cool. Then of course, there's her son and my 5 year old nephew. This is where it gets crazy because I was playing videogames when I was 3 years old... I can't even comprehend how, but that's a fact. But he's only slowly getting into it now and has been enjoying the SNES himself. I don't think he's exposed to newer videogames much and might never be under my sister's watch (financially for now), so it's interesting to kind of wonder if this will imprint something on my nephew when he grows up and how he'll look back on games or grow with them. I don't know how some kids could start off playing Minecraft or 3D stuff thesedays but they do, I guess some people could look back at me and think it was crazy I was playing some stuff like Adventures of Lolo when I was 3-5. Kids just figure it out after awhile if they have the patience, interest, and willpower. I was a social kid but always had an easy time keeping myself busy alone with games and whatnot. It could be an interesting subject to discuss with my nephew down the road.
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Post by anayo on May 13, 2018 13:01:33 GMT -5
My friend’s son had his 8th birthday lately. He got a few games as gifts. One of them was a Playstation game we can talk about on this site on March 23, 2028. I had already listened to reviews for it online, convincing me the game wasn’t my thing. However, my young friend really, really, really wanted to play it with me. He would bring it up every chance he got. I kept trying to steer him toward something else that might appeal more to both of us. He would politely go along with my suggestions, but would squirm restlessly and lose interest in whatever we were playing after 5 minutes. So I relented. We’ve all probably seen this chart: My young friend’s new game is the right side of that chart distilled into weaponized form. I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe 1982? The golden age of arcades in the early 1980’s faced the quandary of fleecing quarters from the public using computer hardware with extremely limited memory and clock cycles. Dazzling the viewer with an unlimited variety of scenery and objects wasn’t technologically possible. This necessitated enticing people to come back again and again using a threadbare number of game elements. The elements themselves were budgeted stringently, but the web of interactions between each element had to be exponentially vast. This innovation - the skill-based high score genre - is what elevated video games over their ancestors: the carnival amusement machines, which were mostly games of chance. So, video games evolved from push-button novelties and for-profit Skinner boxes into something closer to golf or chess. This rhetoric what finally convinced the governor of New York to legalize pinball in 1976, because the municipality classified them as gambling up until that point. While the high score genre didn’t last into the next 25 years, memory and CPU limitations did, so video games in the 90’s and early 2000’s were still about making finite game elements interact with one another in a vast number of ways. Multimedia flourishes and 3D polygons were introduced, but for the most part iterative rearrangement of game elements and the player’s skill stayed at the core of game design philosophy. This is why Super Mario 64, a game whose code and assets total no more than 6 megabytes, takes tens of hours to play through for the first time. Then sometime in the late 2000’s Moore’s Law overcame the memory and CPU limits and film-quality graphics became possible. After that, the structure of video games began to shift from a complex web to a linear sequence, like films. The player advances down a one-way corridor, encounters elements in a scripted order, and performs preordained actions to advance. The actions generally don’t ask much in terms of reflexes, critical thinking, or any other prowess. However, lavish multimedia rivaling a Hollywood production cultivate the illusion that the player asserts an influential role over these elements. This is accomplished by appeals to the player’s sense of urgency and ego. Generally the player is unable to influence the final destination or outcome of the corridor. Despite claims to the contrary, I don’t think these are video games. They’re more like virtual theme park rides that be can experienced in the home. Or maybe they’re the high tech offspring of early 90’s Full Motion Video games. Anyway, these self-proclaimed video games continue to grow in popularity and prevalence, and newcomers like my 8 year old friend can’t get enough of them.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2018 13:40:14 GMT -5
The player advances down a one-way corridor, encounters elements in a scripted order, and performs preordained actions to advance. The actions generally don’t ask much in terms of reflexes, critical thinking, or any other prowess. However, lavish multimedia rivaling a Hollywood production cultivate the illusion that the player asserts an influential role over these elements. What I believe is that video games trigger something in your brain that movies don't. After all, one is an active entertainment form, the other is entirely passive. And what defines a game, really? A set of rules, the player's agency and the possibility of a positive and negative outcome. When you are making progress in the game you feel rewarded and the brain sends happy-go-lucky neurotransmitters in your bloodstream that will make you feel good with yourself and will push you to keep playing. After all, I think it's safe to say that if you are feeling tired and want to call it a day it's generally much easier to put down a movie, rather than a video game you are enjoying. The other side of the coin, which is what developers noticed, is that many people simply aren't dedicated and patient players, they won't give games the time of day if they don't receive immediate gratification. And they asked themselves ' how do we make these lazy players hooked to our games?' The answer are these ' Frankenstein' video games we have nowadays, they are neither movies nor actual video games and will make you feel rewarded while requiring no actual skill from you. As you said, they have been painstakingly designed to make you feel like you are moving the story forward and are not just watching a glorified 'press X to watch the next scene' experience.
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Post by Ex on May 13, 2018 20:19:51 GMT -5
The future has proven to be surprisingly boring because when everything is available, nothing feels special. A wisely written statement about a poignant observation on modern media in general. I certainly find myself thinking this way when it comes to modern gaming. When I was growing up, gaming was a continued stream of new experiences and exciting technological innovations. I don't find myself continuously impressed with new games anymore. I guess VR is exciting if you can afford it (or even want to bother setting it all up). Rather I find myself excited by older games, going back to see what I missed; finding deep or idiosyncratic game design which isn't made these days. The 5th gen especially was prime with fresh ideas and experimental genre hybrids. What I believe is that video games trigger something in your brain that movies don't. I think it really boils down to continual feelings of accomplishment. Every time you do something successful in a game, you feel like you achieved some little thing. Beating a game can be a real sense of satisfaction due to the holistic effort involved. Of course it's mostly a shallow achievement, you pushed the right buttons to make the memory bits flip and pixels glow in a way that the designers intended to constitute victory. Looking at it from that base of a level, building a canoe isn't much different. You pushed the tools in the right way to make wood atoms align in a way that constitutes a floating vehicle. Whatever. In the end it's all about a sense of accomplishment through applied skill. Albeit some accomplishments may be seen as more esteemed, if they also offer others joy as well. Like building a merry-go-round for a park or curing cancer. I do think that focusing entirely on one sole hobby, and not diversifying one's interests, makes for a narrow or boring mind. What I believe is that video games trigger something in your brain that movies don't. After all, I think it's safe to say that if you are feeling tired and want to call it a day it's generally much easier to put down a movie, rather than a video game you are enjoying. I wrote something to that effect once: ardentexhuminator.blogspot.com/2014/08/time-out-for-fun_12.htmlIt's true gaming takes energy, and after a long day, not every adult can muster that energy up. Drinking beers while watching TV is far easier (and far less rewarding). they won't give games the time of day if they don't receive immediate gratification That's true, but I think there's also the empowerment factor. Many pople want to feel powerful when they play games. So easy games where you are immediately gratified by feeling powerful... popular! The latest God of War encapsulates both of these vectors precisely.
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Post by anayo on Jun 5, 2018 5:27:28 GMT -5
I keep up with a YouTuber called ThorHighHeels. I don't think he's young enough to be Generation Z, but his videos focus on Playstation 1 and 2, since that's what he grew up with. In this video of his, he compares his nostalgia for original Playstation to the 8-bit Nintendo generation's nostalgia for Mega Man and Castlevania. He does a pretty thorough - albeit surreal - investigation of how 8-bit nostalgia loves that era for its flaws much like his 32 bit nostalgia.
(The video's 20 minutes long, but don't let that scare you, I scooted the timestamp up to the part where he directly addresses the issue I'm talking about.)
This seems to support the notion that people will be nostalgic for whatever they grew up with, not that old games from a particular generation possess some magic enduring quality that just makes them age well.
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Post by toei on Jun 5, 2018 7:48:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure I fully agree. I think the better Genesis and SNES games - the 16-bit generation - have probably aged better than the previous generation's, all told, because they were largely a more refined version of them. Likewise, the PS2 gen would've aged better than the 32-bit era. I actually have nostalgia for the 32-bit era, particularly the Saturn, and find early, super-polygonal 3D charming in its own way, but it's a lot harder to convince someone to play those early 3D games now, even though many are great. There's a roughness to them, even if it's often only aesthetic, that even people my age (early 30s) sometimes can't get past.
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