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Post by Sarge on Feb 13, 2024 15:11:05 GMT -5
The Messenger was a little more of a hybrid, and while I didn't mind the backtracking, I don't think its exploration was as fleshed out as others in the genre.
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Post by Ex on Feb 13, 2024 15:17:10 GMT -5
Towns and open areas outside the castle both sound good. This particular entry is really exceptional, here's a trailer: I would say the top 3 "metroidvania" style Castlevanias are; Order of Ecclesia, Symphony of the Night, and Circle of the Moon, in that order. >the whole "returning with new abilities to access places you couldn't" was more fun in the top-down ARPGs I don't mind this in "metroidvanias" insofar as it's easy to get back to where you once were (like a convenient warp system). Having to manually backtrack too much, too far, does dampen the fun. That was one of the reasons I dropped Metroid Dread (though I'll give it another chance someday). Also (concerning ARPG) I'll mention Ys8 has a lot of returning to earlier areas with new abilities, to access new areas, with a very convenient warp system to make that fun. While I appreciate linear, straightforward action games (and I definitely understand why others do, too), you also get no sense of exploration with them. I wouldn't say you get "no sense of exploration" with a linear platformer. I mean, the first time through, it's all new-to-you, right? And we've both played many platformers with stages that have little optional branches that lead to hidden power-ups ( Mega Man X games for instance), while not deviating far from the main course. And some linear platformers have branched stage designs, so that there is replayability available, doing the other branches the second/third time through. Even some non-metroidvania Castlevania games are like that (see CV3). All that said, of course the level of exploration in a non-linear platformer is MUCH higher, no argument there.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 13, 2024 15:22:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't say you get "no sense of exploration" with a linear platformer. I mean, the first time through, it's all new-to-you, right? And we've both played many platformers with stages that have little optional branches that lead to hidden power-ups ( Mega Man X games for instance), while not deviating far from the main course. And some linear platformers have branched stage designs, so that there is replayability available, doing the other branches the second/third time through. Even some non-metroidvania Castlevania games are like that (see CV3). All that said, of course the level of exploration in a non-linear platformer is MUCH higher, no argument there. Yeah, I did think about that as I was typing, and you're right. But as you say, it's a much more limited kind of exploration. Kind of the difference between a guided tour with some small branching (and of course, it's new content), as opposed to staying for a while and really poking around. Linear games can still evoke a sense of newness and wonder, it's just harder to get right in my opinion. And some Metroidvanias do a bad job with their exploration and backtracking. Even the backtracking needs to have some level of reward to it. And if not, give a good fast-travel system.
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Post by bonesnapdeez on Feb 13, 2024 16:19:10 GMT -5
"Stage-based" Metroidvanias (like Cosmo Police Galivan and Bio Senshi Dan) are kinda cool. Wish there were more of those.
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Post by toei on Feb 13, 2024 16:31:52 GMT -5
Not sure if that's what you mean as I haven't played Cosmo Police, but I like the side-scrollers that are stage-based but have permanent health, power or weapon upgrades, which may be hidden among larger levels. Like GG Shinobi 2, for example.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 13, 2024 16:43:09 GMT -5
Cosmo Police Galivan was cool, definitely. And yeah, I think GG Shinobi 2 falls into that sort of category. Also a very fun game.
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Post by Ex on Feb 13, 2024 17:08:57 GMT -5
side-scrollers that are stage-based but have permanent health, power or weapon upgrades, which may be hidden among larger levels Yep that's what I was talking about when I said: platformers with stages that have little optional branches that lead to hidden power-ups That is a definite source of worthy exploration. I mentioned the Mega Man X games do this, but so do the Z and ZX entries. Actually, the ZX entries are full on metroidvanias. This is a good game but it suffers from a questionable world mapping system. The superior sequel that fixes the world mapping system issue. Sarge if you've never beaten Advent you owe it to yourself to do so. Solid metroidvania with above average difficulty.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 13, 2024 17:36:32 GMT -5
I've felt like I need to finish ZX first, but that game annoys me in a lot of ways. Advent, from what I've played of it, does seem better.
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Post by Xeogred on Feb 13, 2024 21:00:00 GMT -5
Nice list Ex, to be real picky though I definitely wouldn't count Curse of the Moon as a Metroidvania. That was Classicvania with stages. And yeah, you not liking Metroid Dread is still a Top 10 Anime Betrayals Moment on HRG. I think the game is too hard for normal players so I don't have many to talk with about it. But I loved it. Metroid is always the best in my book for my sci-fi bias, guns, and the crazier movement abilities.
My random 2c here...
My favorite Igavania's are: - Symphony of the Night - Circle of the Moon - Aria of Sorrow - Order of Ecclesia
No real order. I think CoTM and OoE are leagues harder than the average Igavania, which tend to be easy overall. I also think those two have some of the coolest skill/magic systems with the cards in CoTM, then in OoE you can mix and match dual wielding weapons however you please. Naturally I usually went for two fast weapons since it's easy to mash both attack buttons and melt enemies/bosses. I like how OoE starts off stage based actually, then it leads up to a nice sized castle.
These games are a breeze and never too long with SoTN being the exception, until Bloodstained Ritual of the Night. I kind of hated the stylus gimmicks for Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin though, so I've only played those once. But the others I've beaten twice, maybe three times with CoTM, and a few with SoTN.
I thought Mega Man ZX sucked and beat it out of spite. I don't think I'll ever care to revisit it. I wouldn't say ZX Advent fixed the map system much. You still often go into "foreground" doors... so how does that translate to a flat 2D map? It doesn't lol. It's a mess in spots. Zero 1 was a really weird half baked attempt at this too and the weakest entry by far. Somehow Mega Man just tried to be a little weirder with the formula and it doesn't land very well, level design wise. ZX Advent was otherwise pretty good though with some really tough bosses, and I think Zero 2-4 are awesome. They're more straightforward.
Why do I think I want more stuff like Cyber Shadow? Because I feel a slight issue I have after playing dozens of Metroidvania's is similar to the problem with a lot of open world games. You're wasting a lot of time just simply navigating to and from areas. Lot of fluff and needless busywork in between. Yeah that's gaming in a nutshell but I think my patience is just getting thinner with the genre right now and maybe that'll be an off and on mood. Playing something like Gravity Circuit recently was a breath of fresh air in a way, you're in the game immediately doing things and blasting through levels with no stops at all. Love that.
The Last Faith looks a little slow and chunky for my tastes right now.
I have these on Steam to hit up next: - 9 Years of Shadows - I saw it get comparisons to Metroid NES which I still love and the Saint Seiya meets Sailor Moon aesthetic is pretty striking, music seems good too. Looks neat. - Alwa's Legacy - First one was pretty charming with some cool abilities, with a really tough final area that I liked. A real bloodbath gauntlet. Legacy looks and sounds better, so that's cool. - Castle in The Darkness - I don't know, maybe it's Metroidvania? - Rabi-Rabi - Not sure if it counts either... looks kind of weird like Touhou stuff but maybe it's neat.
But yeah unless it's Metroid or sci-fi ninjas, I'm not totally going out of my way for Metroidvania's right now or begging for more. I'm going to be more picky with them for a bit. I liked Blasphemous enough that I'm curious about the sequel and things it changes. But I don't think I can say the same about Axiom Verge, nothing about the sequel ever looked or sounded as fun to me. I'm even kind of shaky on how the first game would hold up for me now, or what I'd think if I played it for the first time here in 2024... I have no idea.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 13, 2024 22:21:29 GMT -5
I think I went through this before, and went something like this:
Symphony > Dawn > Ecclesia = Bloodstained > Aria > Harmony = Circle = Portrait
They're pretty tightly clustered, though. Symphony is a 10/10, Dawn for me is close to it. Everything is above an 8/10.
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