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Post by Sarge on Jul 29, 2019 16:24:28 GMT -5
Gotta find that Darkstar, obviously.
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Post by Ex on Jul 29, 2019 16:38:08 GMT -5
I think the publisher was trying to avoid the "sequel curse", where people avoid buying numerical sequels when they haven't played the preceding entries. How in the world the misuse of the word "Lightening" made it to the box art... that's the real mystery!
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Post by Xeogred on Jul 29, 2019 19:25:33 GMT -5
Extra odd, considering Thunder Force 1 never released outside of Japan, yet they were fine going with Thunder Force II and III on the Western Genesis releases of those. lol
Anyway, I might not get to it right now, but I'm still excited to hit up Flashback perhaps sometime this year. I think my Switch will get a lot of use the second half of this year, so I'll probably get it in then.
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Post by Ex on Jul 30, 2019 0:46:02 GMT -5
Alright guys I finished re-beating: Sonic 3 & Knuckles | SEGA Genesis | 1994
Since most everyone knows about these games, I'm not going into a lot of detail. But if by some remote chance you don't know anything about Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, then check these links: Legend says that Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were always meant to be the same game. And by "Legend" I mean Yuji Naka himself: “Sonic 3 is literally half a game. SEGA management back then wanted the game out at a certain time and we only had half the stages done, so we had to put the leftovers into Sonic & Knuckles. So when you bought S&K and attached it to Sonic 3, you got the whole of what Sonic 3 was planned to have been.” -Yuji Naka
As for me beating this "whole" game, no I did not get the "true" ending. That's because I did not get all the Chaos Emeralds. Why? You see, I'm equally as terrible today, as I was 25 years ago, at this: Sigh. I guess some things never change.
Here's some quick pos/negs about revisiting S3 + S&K = S3&K:
+These 2D graphics look even more gorgeous today then they did a quarter century ago.
+The OST is pretty frickin' awesome.
+Zones keep throwing new creative ideas at you all the way to the end.
+Some of the boss battles are quite cool. +Sonic & Knuckles zones flow mostly well.
-Sonic 3 zones don't flow so much as they play red light green light.
-All of these stages are easily twice as long as they should be.
-Too many troll spikes and gotcha springs in general.
-I wish Sonic & Knuckles could team up like Sonic & Tails do.
-I suck butt at the Chaos Emerald stages. If you haven't beaten Sonic 3 or Sonic & Knuckles in a long time (in my case about 25 years), you've probably forgotten how unrelentingly creative and gorgeous these games are. Both titles push the Genesis to the max graphically, especially when it comes to the way colors are used. Tons of impressive special effects make the experience just pop out of the screen. And few games rock the FM synth of the Genesis like the Sonic series does. I was also constantly impressed by how many motile mechanics SEGA would introduce for Sonic (or Knuckles) to interact with.
But... looking beyond the top tier graphics and sound, it's true the level designs themselves are hit and miss. Sonic 3 especially falls prey to overly long stages, full of rude stops and brash booby traps. The Sonic & Knuckles stages are better designed in general, but are still a tad too long, and pull nasty surprises a little too often. So while I'll easily say S3&K trumps S1 & S2 in the graphics department, I'm afraid I don't think their stage designs are truly better then their predecessors. The boss battles however, are mostly fantastic. It's also impressive how many different endings these games can have. As for the very best one, yeah I watched it on Youtube. Anyway beating S3&K in one go is gonna take you about three hours or more. It's an all you can eat Sonic buffet. I was personally plenty full by the end. However I did enjoy going back and revisiting these two experiences finally unified as one whole, as they were always meant to be. Ex's time to beat: 2 hours 54 minutes Ex's rating: 8/10 - And that fine folks is gonna wrap it up for me for this Club Retro theme.
Here's what I re-beat: F-Zero Climax | Game Boy Advance | 7/10 Hitler no Fukkatsu: Top Secret (Hitler's Resurrection: Top Secret) | Famicom | 10/10 Sonic 3 & Knuckles | SEGA Genesis | 8/10
Soul Blazer | Super Nintendo| 8/10
Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins DX | Game Boy Color | 8/10 See you all next in August's Club Retro, harpoons at the ready!
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Post by Xeogred on Jul 30, 2019 6:35:24 GMT -5
Glad you had a good time with S3&K overall, with S&K coming out on top. I've always wished Hidden Palace Zone after the two Lava Reef's was an actual level (beyond just running to some teleporters), it's so gorgeous. That Lava Reef theme might be my favorite from the game, though I love the Death Egg tunes too.
It's true all the levels in both are quite long and a lot more sprawling than Sonic 1, 2, and CD. I think it's cool how different they all are in general when you really think about it, despite being the same series. Sonic 1 and CD levels are rather open yet still maze like, with a lot of verticality to them. Sonic 2 levels are snappy and more linear but this game has the most zones, so the variety keeps up. And then 3 and Knuckles have the really huge levels, which can be cool if you're going for the Emeralds and looking for all those big teleporter rings. The branching paths in a lot of levels makes the replay value high. S3&K are also the only two that have a boss per every stage, so that's a cool change. I like how Sonic 1 and CD had three Act's per zone though, even if the third was always really short and quickly leads to the boss. Little differences here and there.
You'll be impressed with Sonic Mania when you get to it someday!
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Post by Ex on Jul 30, 2019 9:18:57 GMT -5
I've always wished Hidden Palace Zone after the two Lava Reef's was an actual level (beyond just running to some teleporters), it's so gorgeous. Yuji Naka talks about the Hidden Palace zone in the interview I posted earlier. Here's what's said: "GameSpy: OK, off topic, but this came to mind when we were talking about the Hidden Palace Zone ... there are entire fansites out there devoted to hacking Sonic games and finding all the things Sonic Team was working on, but never used in the finished product. What do you think of this?
Naka: Wow, people do that? I didn't know. I guess I am pretty surprised at the level of dedication of fans on the Internet. But how do I say this ... there is a bit of a problem. I mean, I am glad that people really, really like the games, but if it gets to the point where they are engaging in activities that can hurt us or Sega in some way, that's not good at all. Like, way back when we had a beta ROM of Sonic 2 that was stolen by someone. That one even had the Hidden Palace in it.
GameSpy: There's actually a beta ROM with the Hidden Palace code that's been floating around the Internet for a while.
Naka: What? You're kidding! Tell me more. I'd really like to get that back. *laugh* I guess we know what happened to that now... You see, back in mid-1992 we had taken a demonstration cartridge to a toy show in New York. It wound up being stolen, and although we searched and searched all over, it was never found. So that's probably where the data comes from. What's the Hidden Palace in this one like?
GameSpy: There's stuff in the stage, but it's impossible to play past a certain point.
Naka: Yep, that sounds exactly like what we lost!
GameSpy: Was the Hidden Palace meant to be "hidden," then?
Naka: Actually, no, the basic idea was about the same as it was in Sonic and Knuckles. You'd encounter the stage through normal play by collecting the emeralds. The idea behind the stage was, "Where do the Chaos Emeralds come from?" That's where Sonic was originally supposed to be granted his Super Sonic powers. We finally were able to use it in S&K;, though it wound up being quite different from what we had planned in Sonic 2. But even from Sonic 1 we'd been throwing around those sorts of ideas. Still, when we were running out of time, we looked over things quickly trying to figure out what to dump ... and CHOP went the Hidden Palace. There's simply no way we could have thrown that in by the deadline at the rate we were going."I don't know if you're aware Xeogred, but the highly praised (and free) mobile port of Sonic 2 that SEGA released has the entirety of the Hidden Palace zone in it, as originally planned:
"FEATURES - Twelve Badnik-infested zones to master, from underwater caverns to neon-lit casinos! - Compete online, take on the Time Attack mode, and the all-new Boss Attack mode! - Play the secret Hidden Palace Zone stage that didn't make it into the original release! - Fight Dr. Eggman's creations, including the terrifying Mecha Sonic - Obtain all the Chaos Emeralds to transform into Super Sonic and Super Knuckles!"
And that style is my favorite Sonic flavor. My least favorite classic Sonic game is Sonic CD, because it is just the opposite of Sonic 2's level design methodology. Unfortunately I'd say S3&K hearkens more towards Sonic CD styled levels overall, versus S2.
There's a large amount of fidgety platforming to be done, which isn't ideal. I say isn't ideal, because Sonic's movement physics were not designed to carefully negotiate tricky platforming, the way that Mario's was. Sonic just has too much weighty momentum, and when he moves his inertia builds too quickly for tricky platforming. In addition, I don't prefer to hunt for floor switches and wall buttons as Sonic. Sonic is supposed to be blazing ass through stages, going as fast as possible while shredding enemies with his blue spikes. That's my Sonic. Slowing him down instead, and making him figure out simple puzzles, while hopping across moving platforms precariously hovered above spikes and lava - that's more what I expect out of Super Mario World. If S3&K's levels flowed as smoothly and quickly as S2's, I'd have easily given the game a 9/10... or maybe even higher.
I'll check it out someday when I get a PS4. I've still got Sonic Generations to try on 360. Along with a bunch of various other Sonic releases on other platforms I own like 3DS/Wii U/DS/Wii. I understand though that Mania was super well reviewed.
It's kinda funny how no one ever talks about Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I & II. I guess those must have been pretty bad or bland.
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Post by hooplehead on Jul 30, 2019 9:48:23 GMT -5
I always loved how bonkers and huge S3&K was, when I first played it. The way the game does level transitions and has these great visual touches made this the visual showcase game for the Genesis. While the levels are huge, I remember feeling they balanced the more straightforward approach of 2 with the sprawl of CD for the most part.
Sonic 4 is pretty bad, by the way. It’s art style is somehow more clip art than NSMB, in my book. And the physics just feel terrible, not to mention the super lazy level design. I’d recommend skipping it, since they had some smaller dev make it.
I’ll also second Sonic Mania. Easily my favorite game in the franchise. The only entry that doesn’t feature any levels I dislike. In fact, I think I love all of them. Finds the perfect balance in sprawl and straightforward level design that I feel the Sonic team always wanted to achieve but never did.
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Post by Sarge on Jul 30, 2019 13:25:33 GMT -5
Good job, Ex! Looks like you finished some nice games for this theme. Especially Bionic Commando. You know, when I say I don't mind the slower nature of the original Sonic, that doesn't include the start-stop of later Sonic games, the ones that are all, "haha, we popped you with a spike while you were dashing along" variety. Or trolling you with a pit. That's less than fun, and one of the reasons I like but don't love a lot of Sonic games.
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Post by Xeogred on Jul 30, 2019 18:38:11 GMT -5
There's a large amount of fidgety platforming to be done, which isn't ideal. I say isn't ideal, because Sonic's movement physics were not designed to carefully negotiate tricky platforming, the way that Mario's was. Sonic just has too much weighty momentum, and when he moves his inertia builds too quickly for tricky platforming. In addition, I don't prefer to hunt for floor switches and wall buttons as Sonic. Sonic is supposed to be blazing ass through stages, going as fast as possible while shredding enemies with his blue spikes. That's my Sonic. Slowing him down instead, and making him figure out simple puzzles, while hopping across moving platforms precariously hovered above spikes and lava - that's more what I expect out of Super Mario World. If S3&K's levels flowed as smoothly and quickly as S2's, I'd have easily given the game a 9/10... or maybe even higher.
It's kinda funny how no one ever talks about Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I & II. I guess those must have been pretty bad or bland.
Well since the month is over and we can get a little off topic on the subject of Sonic, over the weekend I put about an hour into Sonic Colors namely due to your recommendation and some of the other praise I've seen it get online. Now the bolded statement in your post, replace "weighty" with "floaty" and that sums up my thoughts with 3D Sonic. I beat two worlds and I guess this time I can see there is a quality game here that people can enjoy, though I'm laughing at the semi-spacey theme since this was Super Mario Galaxy's era. 3D Sonic to me... I feel like I'm doing nothing. I have also never ever liked the weird homing attack gimmick that the entire 3D line went hard on, even though I can't think of a better alternative for a fast character to plow through enemies. But everything about these that I've played, it's just... I'm jumping once or twice, grabbing this or homing in on a bundle of enemies time and time again, I just don't know man. Never liked the weird modern music either. I know most of my complaints could probably be reversed on how some people feel about 2D Sonic, but I absolutely love how 2D Sonic plays and feels.
Anyways, I'm probably done with 3D Sonic after that. I can just confidently now say at this point, 3D Sonic never once clicked with me and never will. I blocked these games out of my mind so hard, it was kind of awesome, like they didn't even exist to me and I just cherished my memories of the 2D games. I did not like the two Adventure games at all, people praised Generations as some kind of return to form and I at least beat that one, but would not give it higher than a 7/10 max nor do I ever want to play it again. Sonic Colors may very well be the best of these but... it's just too average and not for me to continue, even if it's super short from what HLTB says. I can now put 3D Sonic to rest and never touch them again.
I'm with hooplehead on the two Sonic 4 episodes. I beat them and forget they exist until they're brought up like such. I'd probably even rather play the NSMB games and I don't love those either, haha. Sonic 4's physics were pretty bad and it looks super ugly. I think Sonic 2 will come with those features and the playable Hidden Palace Zone when its Sega Ages version hits the Switch someday. To clarify though, I really wish the S&K Hidden Palace was more playable. It's so cool visually with an awesome theme, but yeah you quickly find your way to Sky Sanctuary... which has an amazing theme too and is kind of a weird experimental level, but I don't love it. Death Egg rules though. I guess to be fair, I LOVE how different Lava Reef 1 and 2 are from one another, and 2 kind of has that Hidden Palace vibe going. I just never wanted these levels to end. Felt the same in their Mania incarnations...
To emphasis just how much I love 2D Sonic... there are times I wonder if I like them more than 2D Mario.
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Post by hooplehead on Jul 30, 2019 18:55:19 GMT -5
While I haven’t played Colors and can’t comment on it, I completely agree with Xeogred in that 3D Sonic really feels like it’s playing itself for you. Everything feels automated from the set pieces that take control away from the player to the homing attack. Speaking of the homing attack, it always prompted a weird sensation that is probably one of the worst sins for a game to commit for me personally. It makes me conscious that I’m pressing a button to make a thing happen on a screen. It’s the equivalent of a gameplay QTE, but at least QTE’s by their very nature are sort of self aware. Just a weird pet peeve of mine.
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