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Post by hooplehead on Jul 30, 2019 19:04:43 GMT -5
To emphasis just how much I love 2D Sonic... there are times I wonder if I like them more than 2D Mario.
Speaking as a Mariodrone, there is one thing that always kept me from loving Sonic like I do Mario or even Donkey Kong. Sonic has a very narrow scope in terms of gameplay. There are so many crazy and inventive gameplay mechanics and level concepts that I just feel could never translate to Sonic because of how those games rely on momentum (and to a lesser degree speed). To put it another way, I feel there are far stricter rules on what can make for a good Sonic level versus what can make for a good Mario level.
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Post by Xeogred on Jul 30, 2019 19:23:42 GMT -5
To emphasis just how much I love 2D Sonic... there are times I wonder if I like them more than 2D Mario.
Speaking as a Mariodrone, there is one thing that always kept me from loving Sonic like I do Mario or even Donkey Kong. Sonic has a very narrow scope in terms of gameplay. There are so many crazy and inventive gameplay mechanics and level concepts that I just feel could never translate to Sonic because of how those games rely on momentum (and to a lesser degree speed). To put it another way, I feel there are far stricter rules on what can make for a good Sonic level versus what can make for a good Mario level. Yeah, it was my ~2014 2D Mario replay-marathon when I realized Mario is *probably* still better... maybe. For me, I really love the aesthetics of Sonic, but the 2D games really are a product of their time. "Zany" comes to mind. A lot of the levels are utterly surreal in design and look otherworldly, while bringing in a nuclear explosion of 90's gnarly cheese with the shapes and colors. I think graphically Sonic CD has to be one of the sexiest games of all time for me. The way the games handle vertically with the stacked backgrounds giving you this huge sense of depth is incredible. The games look so dense and each Sonic game is chalk full of zones that are dramatically different from one another, so many fresh locales as you progress through the games.
And I LOVE Koji Kondo and the man is a genius. But Sonic's shredding in your face rockin' poppy tunes have always been more my jam compared to Mario's music. Koji gets me when it comes to Zelda though...
It'll always be an eternal debate in my head haha. But it's like ordering my favorite gold bricks on a shelf, win/win either way.
When Sonic Adventure opened up with some generic New York city styled area with humans and dolphins, the gnarly flavor of the 2D games was lost forever.
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Post by Ex on Jul 30, 2019 20:57:29 GMT -5
"haha, we popped you with a spike while you were dashing along" variety. Or trolling you with a pit There's a lot of stuff like that in Sonic 3. The game will get you going along, then suddenly slam you with a springboard, right into a spike pit. If you jump at the last second to avoid the springboard, there will a floating spike enemy in the air ready to hit you instead. There's just a lot of Rube Goldberg styled trolling going on. Which I imagine when the designers were making the levels, seemed really interesting to them, unfortunately without seeing this stuff from the player's perspective clearly enough. I can see there is a quality game here that people can enjoy, though I'm laughing at the semi-spacey theme since this was Super Mario Galaxy's era. Well, let's not forget that Sonic Adventure 2 did the Mario Galaxy-styled 3D rotational level thing years before Mario Galaxy actually did: I'm probably done with 3D Sonic after that. I can understand your dislike. I'll freely admit the 3D Sonic games are taking a lot of different approaches than the 2D Sonic games do. For someone to prefer one approach over the other is totally understandable. And moreover, I've tried a bunch of 3D Sonic games, and the only one I liked is Sonic Colors. Weren't you a fan of Sonic 3D Blast on Genesis though? (It's isometric 3D anyway.) Or am I thinking of someone else? I would be bold enough to say that a 2D Sonic game at its very best is on par with a 2D Mario game at its very best. However Mario platformer games as a series manage a much higher degree of consistent quality than Sonic games do. Sonic was more quantity over quality, unfortunately. So I edge more closely to being a Mariodrone than a Sonicdrone. But there's so many Sonic games I still need to play, maybe my bias could sway more towards Sonic eventually. 3D Sonic really feels like it’s playing itself for you. Everything feels automated from the set pieces that take control away from the player to the homing attack. I won't disagree with that - except when it comes to bosses. In the 3D Sonic games I've played, the bosses tend to be tougher than 2D Sonic bosses. Usually due to having to fight in 3D space, and orient and aim attacks on a Z-axis as well as X/Y. Damn it man now I'll always be aware of that. You are all now aware of how annoying Sonic's BOING sound effect is every time he jumps... I heard that damn sound effect a thousand times while beating S3&K.
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Post by Xeogred on Jul 30, 2019 21:32:18 GMT -5
The Sonic CD jump SFX is even higher pitched. I never mind them though haha. The Sonic Adventure 2 video made me laugh... "WHO is this?" man oh man, I'm not sure who asked for Sonic to expand with dozens of more characters. I don't even love Tails or Knuckles! Just let me be Sonic solo. They're fine though, along with CD Amy. Sonic Unleashed is probably the other last 3D Sonic I hear about in similar conversations as Colors and Generations, ie apparently one of the better ones. But yeah... I'm good. You guys are right that Mario evolved a lot more, the transition from SM1 to SMW is huge. With Sonic 1 - S&K, it's mainly just different philosophies on level design like we were saying earlier, but for the most part the core concepts don't change too much. And yeah Ex , I'm actually a big fan of Sonic 3D Blast. So it's namely just the Adventure/modern era that I dislike. I hate Sonic's modern designs and skinny legs too. lol I don't know if you've played 3D Blast but if you liked S3/K's music, the Genesis version of 3D Blast sounds like it shared the same sound driver and maybe some composers. Super dope OST.
Anything this sick in Mario?
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Post by Sarge on Jul 31, 2019 9:22:52 GMT -5
I've actually beaten Sonic Adventure 2. I have no idea if it aged well, but I remember enjoying it well enough back in the day.
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Post by Ex on Jul 31, 2019 9:40:14 GMT -5
XeogredI really like that "Rusty Ruin Zone" track. There's so many retro Sonic games I haven't played yet, but maybe 3D Blast should rise higher in the queue.
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Post by hooplehead on Jul 31, 2019 13:14:53 GMT -5
XeogredHaha, I should’ve clarified that I was talking about the two mascots as a series rather than comparing them as individual games. The high points of either series are really high, and it basically comes down to what you prefer. But I’ll definitely agree that Sonic’s OST is where it’s at. Kondo is still one of the greats, but I always felt the Mario soundtracks didn’t start to get interesting until Mario entered the 3rd dimension. I should also add that I always appreciated Sonic featuring more zones that weren’t simple biomes, which Mario usually sticks to. And the 3D games are ok in my book - not bad, but certainly not great or even very good. I always felt linear levels was the wrong choice for Sonic in 3D. Glad to see I’m not the only one that really likes 3D blast!
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Post by Sarge on Jul 31, 2019 13:38:25 GMT -5
You know, I agree. Most Sonic music is better than Mario music. I mean, yes the series has iconic tunes, but Sonic games take it to a whole other level.
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Post by Xeogred on Jul 31, 2019 19:29:06 GMT -5
Xeogred I really like that "Rusty Ruin Zone" track. There's so many retro Sonic games I haven't played yet, but maybe 3D Blast should rise higher in the queue. It's good to see hooplehead is a fan too, you're not going to find much of us on the net, dude. Sonic 3D Blast has become a bit of a punching bag in all the years I've been on the internet, yet I always liked it as a kid and have replayed it a few times throughout the years. I think it was supposed to be a 3D Flicky game originally or something, but I forget. Either way, I think if you approach it as a bit more of a puzzle game, you might dig it. You go around finding Flickies and have to escort them to the goal, that probably sounds bad on paper but it doesn't bug me. Could go either way though, it's extremely hit or miss I guess. But there's not much else really like it.
To be honest though, when I talk about my strong love for old Sonic, I'm always just thinking of Sonic 1 through S&K / CD and now Mania fits in there too. 3D Blast is cool and there's some other Game Gear / Master System entries I dug, but yeah. It's the 16bit Big Five that I love the most, Sonic 1, 2, 3, S&K, and CD. Altogether that's a lot of awesome content to me. I'm not sure what else you think you're missing out on, but I assume you've already played the main ones.
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Post by Ex on Jul 31, 2019 20:46:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure what else you think you're missing out on, but I assume you've already played the main ones. The more esoteric releases. The Game Gear stuff, Saturn releases, Knuckles' Chaotix, Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure, the GBA games, the DS games, the PSP releases... there's just so much stuff. It's probably all B & C tier, but still interesting enough.
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